{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/319s17vf3f/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Interview with Dr. Mackenzie Brown"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/173/original/Logo_CL_ColorReversed.png?1773939905","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eInterview with Dr. Mackenzie Brown. TU Treasures Oral History Collection. UAOH003-031. Coates Library Special Collections and Archives. Trinity University (San Antonio, Tex).\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eDr. C. Mackenzie Brown was born in Santa Barbara, California, and served as a professor at Trinity University’s religion department for 45 years. He was interviewed by Catherine Huang, with recording equipment monitored by Maya Tsai, at Trinity University’s Coates Library on October 18, 2024 at 11am. The interview was conducted as a part of the Oral History class (HIST-3467), TU Treasures Oral History Collection, and EAST Oral History Initiative. Dr. Brown begins with describing his first memory, which sparked his interest in Hinduism. He then speaks on his education, which includes a Bachelor’s degree in history with a minor in religion and a PhD in History of Religions and Hinduism. Dr. Brown spends time describing the personal and professional difficulties he faced at key points in his academic career. These include establishing an Asian Studies program and studying female-centric issues like goddess traditions and rape culture. He focuses especially on his research into rape in India, which culminated in his project, The Rape That Woke Up India. Dr. Brown circles back to his journey to Trinity after receiving his PhD, then moves forward to how he arrived at the decision to retire. He says that he has spent his retirement years indulging his love of natural history as a Texas Master Naturalist, and ends with a philosophical musing on his own personal convictions, how age changes us all, and how studying religion has impacted his view of the world. \u003c/p\u003e (abstract)","\u003cp\u003eDr. C. Mackenzie Brown was born in Santa Barbara, California on November 1, 1945. He received his Bachelor of Arts in History with a minor in Religion from Stanford University, and his Ph.D. in History of Religions and Hinduism from Harvard University. He joined the religion department at Trinity University in 1973 as its first non-Presbyterian minister faculty member. During his tenure at Trinity, his studies evolved from a focus on the goddess traditions of medieval India to Hinduism and its response to modern science. Dr. Brown served as the chair of the Asian Studies program from 1978-1985 and continued to be involved in the program’s evolution to its current iteration, the East Asian Studies at Trinity Program (EAST). Of all the courses that he taught over the course of his career, he found the classes on Death and Beyond and Rape in India, the US, and Trinity the most meaningful. Since his retirement in 2019, Dr. Brown has moved to the Texas Hill Country and cultivated a love for natural history as a Master Naturalist.\u003c/p\u003e (biographical note)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2024-10-18 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Participants"]},"value":{"en":["Mackenzie Brown (Interviewee)","Catherine Huang (Interviewer)","Maya Tsai (Monitor)","Catherine Huang (Indexer)","archives@trinity.edu (Metadata Contact)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (Primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Trinity University Special Collections and Archives"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThe materials in this collection may be protected by copyright law (Title 17, U.S. Code). The materials are available for personal, educational, and scholarly use. It is the responsibility of the researcher to locate and obtain permission from the copyright owner or his or her heirs for any other use, such as reproduction and publication.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["MP3"]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["UAOH003-031 (cms record id)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["TU Treasures Oral History Collection (is part of)","EAST Oral History Initiative (is part of)","HIST 3467 Introduction to Oral History (is part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject"]},"value":{"en":["Trinity University (corporate name)","India (geographic term)","Religion (topical term)","Interdisciplinary Programs and Scholarship (topical term)","Sexual Assault (topical term)","South Asia (geographic term)","Hinduism (topical term)","Gender and Sexuality (topical term)","Faculty (topical term)","East Asian Studies at Trinity (local term)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral History"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interviewee Type"]},"value":{"en":["Faculty"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eDr. C. Mackenzie Brown was born in Santa Barbara, California, and served as a professor at Trinity University\u0026rsquo;s religion department for 45 years. He was interviewed by Catherine Huang, with recording equipment monitored by Maya Tsai, at Trinity University\u0026rsquo;s Coates Library on October 18, 2024 at 11am. The interview was conducted as a part of the Oral History class (HIST-3467), TU Treasures Oral History Collection, and EAST Oral History Initiative. Dr. Brown begins with describing his first memory, which sparked his interest in Hinduism. He then speaks on his education, which includes a Bachelor\u0026rsquo;s degree in history with a minor in religion and a PhD in History of Religions and Hinduism. Dr. Brown spends time describing the personal and professional difficulties he faced at key points in his academic career. These include establishing an Asian Studies program and studying female-centric issues like goddess traditions and rape culture. He focuses especially on his research into rape in India, which culminated in his project, The Rape That Woke Up India. Dr. Brown circles back to his journey to Trinity after receiving his PhD, then moves forward to how he arrived at the decision to retire. He says that he has spent his retirement years indulging his love of natural history as a Texas Master Naturalist, and ends with a philosophical musing on his own personal convictions, how age changes us all, and how studying religion has impacted his view of the world.\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e","\u003cp\u003eDr. C. Mackenzie Brown was born in Santa Barbara, California on November 1, 1945. He received his Bachelor of Arts in History with a minor in Religion from Stanford University, and his Ph.D. in History of Religions and Hinduism from Harvard University. He joined the religion department at Trinity University in 1973 as its first non-Presbyterian minister faculty member. During his tenure at Trinity, his studies evolved from a focus on the goddess traditions of medieval India to Hinduism and its response to modern science. Dr. Brown served as the chair of the Asian Studies program from 1978-1985 and continued to be involved in the program\u0026rsquo;s evolution to its current iteration, the East Asian Studies at Trinity Program (EAST). Of all the courses that he taught over the course of his career, he found the classes on Death and Beyond and Rape in India, the US, and Trinity the most meaningful. Since his retirement in 2019, Dr. Brown has moved to the Texas Hill Country and cultivated a love for natural history as a Master Naturalist.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThe materials in this collection may be protected by copyright law (Title 17, U.S. Code). The materials are available for personal, educational, and scholarly use. It is the responsibility of the researcher to locate and obtain permission from the copyright owner or his or her heirs for any other use, such as reproduction and publication.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Trinity University Special Collections and Archives"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Trinity University Special Collections and Archives"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/173/original/Logo_CL_ColorReversed.png?1773939905","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/259/881/small/scan_2026_04-153839_bw_crop.jpg?1776275607","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - HIST3467-20241018-Brown-Mackenzie-FINAL.mp3"]},"duration":3877.8752,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/259/881/small/scan_2026_04-153839_bw_crop.jpg?1776275607","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-trinityuniversity.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/259/881/original/HIST3467-20241018-Brown-Mackenzie-FINAL.mp3?1735847123","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":3877.8752,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Interview with Dr. Mackenzie Brown [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HUANG: This interview is a part of the TU Treasures Oral History Project and EAST Oral History Initiative. Today is October 18, 2024, I’m Catherine Huang, a student at Trinity University, and today I am interviewing Dr. C. Mackenzie Brown. Dr. Brown was a faculty member at Trinity University, and was here from 1973 to 2019. I am also joined by Maya Tsai, who will be monitoring the recording equipment. The interview today will mainly focus on his tenure at Trinity, as well as his connection to the EAST program. This interview is being recorded for the Oral History class H-I-S-T-3476 and will be part of the TU Treasures Oral History Project and archived with the university archives, part of Trinity University’s Special Collections and Archives in Coates Library. So, Dr. Brown, if we could begin by sort of talking about your upbringing, like walk me through some of your earliest memories, like when and where you were born, family, friends, community, schooling, places you lived, things like that. \n\nBROWN: I was born, uh, just after the bomb at Hiroshima, 1945, that fall, and uh, my first memory, although maybe confused with what people have told me, was when my father returned from India in 1947. He’d gone over there as soon as the war was over to follow or to meet with, uh, a Hindu saint, Ramana Maharshi. Do you need me to spell that? \n\n HUANG: Unh-uh. (laughs)\n\nBROWN: And, uh, he became a devotee of Ramana Maharshi. So, what chance did I have but to eventually go into religion studies? \n\nHUANG: Um-hm. So that was the, kind of (both talking at once) catalyst?\n\nBROWN: I remember his coming back, I think—memory or what people told me—but he was back for my second birthday. After that, I don’t remember anything until, you know, the usual five— five years, six years, but my father also received on my birth a card from his uncle saying “Well, at last you have a Chinese scholar.” Now, I—I guess I didn’t disappoint him too much in becoming a Sanskrit scholar, but, uh, other than the change in field— My father was a professor at the University of California Santa Barbara, and so I guess not having any of the physical gifts of most of my peers—I couldn’t run fast. I couldn’t catch a ball.— academics was, you know, my one area to go forward in, and so I basically loved school and did well enough to get into Stanford as an undergraduate, and there I majored in—They didn’t have a religion major, uh, but in history was a religion minor, and back in those days, history was not taught well, even at Stanford, although I’d probably appreciate it better today, but a lot of it was more political, military history, and not the social history that, uh, I really liked and have liked ever since I myself went through graduate school, and so after graduating from Stanford in history and religion, uh, I was accepted into Harvard’s World Religions Center, Center for the Study of World Religions, and the requirement there was for your first two years you, uh, lived in the World Religions Center, and it was married, singles—I was single—and married couples, singles, from the diverse world, uh, religions, so they had, uh, Buddhists and Hindus. My best friends were Hindus and Buddhists at the time, and although my roommate was, uh, Jewish, and it was, you know, a very much eye-opening sort of experience, one that I was certain very","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=0.0,300.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"uh, excited to be in that sort of environment and I had chosen Harvard because of the program director in those years, Wilfred Cantwell Smith, who later ended up performing my marriage ceremony—to my first wife, it didn’t last. It lasted seventeen years—but anyway, we were close, obviously, he was my mentor, and I had gone over to India for my first trip before going to, uh, the, uh, World Religions Center. That was back in ‘67, and over in India, you either fall in love with it or abhor it, uh, because all those stories you hear about the poverty and the crippled people lying in the streets as well as all the people who pretend to be crippled and lying in the streets, uh, so you don't know as a Westerner. They just flock all over you because you obviously are much better off than most of them, and for the twenty-one year old it was sort of overwhelming, and I also got sick, which was sort of standard. I mean, if you want to go out into the villages, which was my interest, not just to stay in a hotel in the cities, and you know, it’s just hard especially when you go out there and the Hindus that I met, who—whom I had never met before, obviously, they were so hospitable and they offer you all sorts of food, (laughs) and what’s going to happen? And, uh, I just remember being out in one village, and they only had squat toilets and I got diarrhea, and not the most pleasant experience. Now, can you put that in the archive? (laughs)\n\nHUANG: (laughs) Sure. (laughs)\n\nBROWN: Well, it’s part of my experience, and what—So, uh, after I finished graduate school in six years, uh, and I—If I had it all to do over again, I would try to do more field research, but my experience on my first trip, uh, convinced me and so did my thesis advisor, who is, uh, a Sanskrit scholar, Daniel Ingalls. Uh, he said he saw too many students go over to India and, after two years, they finally figure out “Oh, I need to do a totally different topic” from what they started, and ten, fifteen years later, they’re still doing their dissertation. Uh, one thing that was always very clear to me since high school was I wanted to be a college professor, sort of following in my father’s footsteps, and so, uh, I decided to do a sort of classical, textual study, and that didn’t involve my leaving anywhere aside from going to the library, and there weren’t great ILLs [Interlibrary Loan] courses back in those days, or it was harder to get at Harvard’s library, a rich library in sources in Sanskrit and—and the like, thanks in large part, of course, to, uh, the Sanskrit professors, not just my own mentor but his predecessors who—You know, libraries are built largely by professors, and may be different today. I don’t know how libraries exactly acquire all the books, but certainly then, and so, I was able to find all the Sanskrit texts I needed to do this study of—I become interested in, uh, the, uh, goddess traditions of India, especially in the medieval period, and so, the major sacred text at the time, not known to many Westerners unless you read much on it—Puranas, is that a word you’ve ever","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=300.0,600.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"heard? Probably not, uh, but probably the Vedas, the Upanishads. Those are fairly well-known texts in the West, but the Puranas are actually the—the texts that most Hindus use in their daily worship and practices. They may chant a few Vedic hymns if you go out to the Hindu temple, here in those you’d hear a little Vedic chanting, but a lot of the rituals are derived from the Puranic text, and the Puranas more or less focused their—several of them, eighteen major ones, supposedly—will focus on one or another deity, and I chose the goddess texts, and uh, that was what my dissertation was on, and my first three books were all about the goddess texts. Have you heard of the Bhagavad Gita?\n\nHUANG: Uh-huh.\n\nBROWN: Have you heard of the Devi Gita? And the Devi is simply the Hindu term for goddess, and so this was the song of the goddess, and it was obviously written in imitation of the Bhagavad Gita, and so I spent the first twenty-five, uh, years here at Trinity, in terms of research, focused on the translations and commentary of the goddess texts. During the same time, over my first twenty-five years, the courses I taught—They hired me to teach Asian religions—and as I recall—You can always check with Bill Walker. His memory is always very great. Bill Walker was the chair. He wasn’t the chair when I first came here, but he soon became chair, uh, but he remembers all these sorts of details.—As I recall, I was the first, uh, religion professor hired, uh, in the university’s history who was not a Presbyterian minister, and this was due to my chair Guy Ransom, who was trying to establish a true scholarly religion department rather than a Bible department, because shortly before I came, the requirements for students majoring in religion, largely Bible courses, and it was required that every student take Bible class, and I remember when I interviewed my predecessor, uh, when he taught, uh, here, he was a missionary to the East, but in courses on, uh, on the Bible, there was questions like—and this I only have on hearsay—but “What did Adam and Eve clothe themselves with?” and, obviously, such a person really didn’t have the background for doing Hindu studies and since language is certainly prerequisite, I don’t know if he—He probably knew Chinese. I think that is where he’d been stationed. So when I came in, Asian religions was the—was what I was designed to—designated to teach. I think Frank Garcia had taught it, uh, in the department, but I was the first person to—that came in with a background in Sanskrit and Indian studies. Today, I don’t think I could get hired here at Trinity, because more important than Sanskrit are the modern Indian languages, Hindi and so forth. The Sanskrit is fine as a background, like if you’re studying Western culture it’s good to have Greek and Latin, but if you don’t know French and German and so forth, what can you do with modern—modern studies? And I became much more interested in the modern period, and so, uh, around my twenty-fifth year of teaching here, I was becoming","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=600.0,900.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"really burnt out with the medieval Sanskrit literature and the goddess literature, especially when I was reading in the Sanskrit texts and the modern interpretations of them. You have all these, uh, myths and—myth in the scholarly sense, not an untrue story but—uh, stories that reveal a worldview relating the gods and the world and the animals and humans and so forth, in that sense of myth—but these myths were being interpreted by modern Hindu, uh, apologists. Do you know what an apologist is? It’s not just someone who makes apologies, but in a religious context, the apologist is one who argues in defense of certain customs or traditions or, uh, views, teachings. Anyway, modern Hindu apologists were uh, reading these thousand-year-old or two thousand-year-old texts and finding in them, in the goddess for instance, is said to be flying through the air on her chariot, and then she throws down some sort of weapon and then wipes out the animal. This was interpreted as a flying machine, an airplane, and what she threw down was a nuclear weapon, and you have even people like the current prime minister of India claiming that the ancient Vedic doctors did head transplants. Have you ever heard of that? And it’s just crazy stuff, uh, and I certainly understand some of the rationale for it, because the British colonial enterprise in India was certainly oppressive and cruel and when India finally gained its freedom, there was this sort of backlash against the colonized mentality that saw everything Western as—as evil and polluting and so forth, and the—there was this sudden surge to claim that India was the origin of modern technology and modern science and so forth, and I became fascinated by that effort and so the last, uh, twenty years of my research focused on, uh, the Hindu tradition and its responses to modern science and specifically to evolutionary science and what I first encountered and repeatedly encountered was that Hindus have no problem with evolution. In fact, they discovered it two thousand years before Darwin, but when you dug a little deeper, what they meant by evolution was reincarnation and the evolution through animal forms. So they said “We don’t have any problem with, you know, animals, humans being animals, and so forth,” but what they meant was that your soul once was a worm, and then it became a frog, and then it became this animal or that animal, uh, and so forth, and sure, probably we were monkeys in a previous incarnation before becoming humans, so where’s the conflict? Well, there’s a huge conflict, which they simply overlooked because karmic evolution is simply very very different from organic, biologic evolution. So that’s what my last, uh, two books were about, and then a twist on that finally arose—arose on that when, uh, as part of looking at this modern period, there were great efforts to show how Hinduism had always treated women well. After all, they have goddesses, and Christianity just has these masculine deities, and Hinduism has all these goddesses. And at first, I thought “Well that’s, uh, that’s interesting,” but then, as I looked in it further, because I was very familiar with the goddess literature, the problem is—I’ve been","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=900.0,1200.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"doing a lot of talking, so I’m going to ask you a question. \n\nHUANG: Sure. \n\nBROWN: What do you think it means to a woman to be viewed as a goddess? Is that something that you see as favorable, as praising a woman?\n\nHUANG: I think it’s somewhere in the middle. I think probably—I feel like with adoration comes expectation as well, so there’s kind of that middle. \n\nBROWN: Oh, I think it’s horrible. Once I really began to look into it. Because in seeing a goddess—a woman as a goddess—as you say, the expectation, but she loses all her individuality, so she needs to fit the role of the goddess, and of course she can’t (laughs) because she’s not a goddess. Probably the worst example of this is the, uh, the young preadolescent girls in Nepal who are worshipped as a goddess, and when that period is over, then they can never marry. They can never do anything because they think that they’re untouchable after that. So, anyway, that was what got me interested in the issue of how has the tradition really viewed women and how do modern Indians really view women, and because of the writings I’d been doing on religion and science and Hinduism and evolution, I was invited to, uh, university up in Northern India, and this was in 2012 I believe, and when I landed, uh, in the airport in Delhi with my wife, there were huge protests all around. It was the night that the twenty-three year old medical student finally died in the hospital. I believe that she had been moved to Salon, that she had been raped ten days earlier in unfortunately an all too typical assault. Uh, she had taken a bus ride home from, uh—I think she had gone to see a movie, but whatever it was she got onto a bus and there were six men on it and they assaulted her and used a—what was I guess a tire iron—to penetrate her and cause major injury and so much so that she died ten days later, and so, uh, we went to the protests. After the university, we came back, and I went over, signed books and so forth for the students. Women were protesting this because women in India usually didn’t want to—rarely ever wanted to report assaults because they would be harassed by the police, even perhaps assaulted by the police if they did. It was shameful. It dishonored their family, even though the logic of that I have never understood, uh, but that’s your, uh, the culture that you are in. I can see why a woman would not want to, uh, ever come forward, say that she’d been raped, uh. So when I came back to Trinity, thought I would develop that course on rape in India, rape in the U.S., and rape at Trinity, and the two most meaningful courses that I taught at Trinity were not Asian religions, although that was certainly the bread and butter of course, but that one I did earlier in my career on death and beyond and then the one on rape and, uh, the First year—can’t remember if I taught it two or three times—but first year or the first two if I taught it three times, it was only women in the class, and that required some special adjustments, because in general, obviously, we don’t want classes that are only open to men or only open to—to women, but this was seen as a special case, and one of the ground rules for that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=1200.0,1500.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"class was that anything said in the class stayed in the class. So that was my most meaningful course over the years, and I had a lot of fun with the Asian religions, having students go out to, uh, do the—participate in a ceremony over at the Hindu temple here, and it was always interesting to see the very conservative fundamentalist students who, uh, upon the extreme, one, uh, woman who went out, because I said at the beginning “That’s simply a requirement. There are substitutes for that, so here it is up front, and you don’t have to participate any more than just to go into the temple and sit and observe what goes on.” Some students would go out and join in the—the songs, especially Indian students who knew some of the songs, but this one woman, after twenty minutes, she had to get up. The presence of Satan was so strong, she said, that she couldn’t stay in there any longer, and that was fine. She got an A in the class. She was, you know, very bright, but obviously a very conservative religious background. And so, I always found it interesting to try to negotiate those who respecting where different students were coming from, even if they were very different places from where I was coming from, and so that, pretty much, I think, sums up my teaching, and so, as far as the Asian Studies and EAST program, uh, when I went back to India after completing graduate school before coming here to teach at Trinity, uh, I came back having again had major issues with health, weighed a hundred and five pounds and at that time I was six feet, so I was pretty scrawny, uh, and fortunately I didn’t come down with any long-term stuff, but I decided I really didn’t, uh, trust myself to go over to India again—at least going out to villages and so forth, where you never knew what the sanitary conditions were like—and uh, I had thought about trying to take students to India, but there were major major issues. One is the, well the most likely—best time to do a short program is during the summer. Well, when I arrived in Calcutta in the summer in my first trip, it was a hundred degrees and a hundred percent humidity, and I ended up with a temperature of a hundred and two, just not a good time for—for going there, certainly not for me, because most of the places they don’t have A/C, and so you just, uh, are there and goodness, the people that grew up there, they told me that whenever they travel they get dysentery too or diarrhea, because here and there, even if it’s only a hundred miles apart, they have different germs and bugs, so they—they did all the precautions and I tried not to drink any tap water and all this stuff but, uh, it didn’t help, and so the safety of the students was certainly a concern, and there were a number of good graduate programs for graduate students and so forth, but I didn’t see anything for undergraduates that I could latch onto, so it would’ve had to have been my whole creation and I was not willing to—to do that, and then I had family, and so rather than going out to India for one or two months in the summer, stayed home, coached my childrens’ soccer and baseball teams and the like. So I admired people like","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=1500.0,1800.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Don Clark, who really got the EAST program going and trips to, uh, to China and the like, and then my colleague Randy Nadeau—Have you interviewed him yet?\n\nHUANG: Yes. \n\nBROWN: Okay, so, uh, he, well, eventually became the Fulbright director for East Asia, and ideally suited and—I’d learned Sanskrit. You don’t speak Sanskrit on the street, but he knew Chinese, so that, again, made it very easy. The thing about India that made it that perhaps not too big an obstacle—although it was more so in the villages—Most Indians speak English, at least the more educated ones, but anyway that’s why never I tried to push for an India study abroad type of program. So, anything else up to retirement, or are you—?\n\nHUANG: I did want to ask a bit about, uh, the Asian Studies program, uh, because I saw that you were chair from 1970 to 1985 and then the program kind of disappears from the courses of study bulletin. Like, uh, what do you remember about kind of how that change happened?\n\nBROWN: (laughs) Boy, you’ve done your research. I forgot that was actually the case because I was about, I guess, the only person in the Asian Studies at that time, I guess, and so trying to get that started—but there were a number of issues. Chinese wasn’t taught, and China’s, uh, even without having heard Don Clark talk about it, China clearly seemed, uh, the area of focus that would draw more students, and you know you can’t have a program if you are not going to have students, and you can promote them in various ways—I’m not sure I’ve ever been a great promoter. Now, Stephen Field is a great promoter, but that’s just not so much in my character, but I was certainly willing to support and try to do something there, but the language programs—They had this—I’m trying to remember what it’s called, but they—We didn’t have any Chinese professors, and so it was a self-taught program. Have you heard about such programs? And they would find somebody who spoke Chinese natively, and then the student would meet with them once a week or twice a week and get exercises and so forth and I knew, with Sanskrit, that you needed four intense—intensive years to be able to learn to do anything with it, and Chinese has its own, uh, issues, difficulties, uh—[to Tsai] You’re taking Chinese?\n\nTSAI: Yes.\n\nBROWN: Are you supposed to not, uh, be part of this interview? \n\nHUANG: (laughs)\n\nTSAI: (laughs)\n\nBROWN: Sorry about that, you can delete it right? When you edit it?\n\nHUANG: We do. \n\nBROWN: Uh, anyway, uh, it just, uh, the people were not getting much proficiency in it, and so finally Trinity decided to support teaching Chinese, and I don’t remember who the first Chinese professor was, but, uh, that was probably around 19—You say I was chair of that program until ‘85?\n\nHUANG: Uh, yes.\n\nBROWN: So that may be about the time I’m—it began to—then it was obvious that it had transferred to that person. Who became chair of that?\n\nHUANG: It was interesting because the program itself was no longer in the courses of study of bulletin and then pops up later in a different concentration. \n\nBROWN: (speaking at the same time) How much later? \n\nHUANG: Uh, 1992. \n\nBROWN: Ninety-two. So probably seven years during which time there was a lot of restructuring of many things and that was—but I have to confess I do not have a clear memory. As you notice, and as I ran through my career, I never, uh, referred to that. I had totally forgotten it. \n\nHUANG: (laughs)\n\nBROWN: (laughs) I don’t know what exactly that says about me or the program, but—\n\nHUANG: (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=1800.0,2100.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBROWN:\u003c/strong\u003e Anyway, uh, so, in all honesty, we just didn’t have the facilities here. When I first came to Trinity—this is an interesting little story—we had a masters program in the religion department, and after three or four years, the religion department voted to end that program, and a number of departments had had masters programs, uh, and in the humanities and arts, uh, and, uh—How many masters programs do we have now?\n\nHUANG: Not very many. I know we’re, like, a primarily undergrad university. I want to say no more than maybe four or five?\n\n Education.\n\nHUANG: Education, uh, I know—\n\n Business? \n\nHUANG: Yeah. Education, business. I want to say, uh, my friend’s get—is going to be a CPA by the end of the year, so, uh, accounting.\n\n Okay, I would put that in—\n\nHUANG: Accounting—\n\n In business—\n\nHUANG: (speaking at the same time) In business—\n\n In business overall. And then music. \n\nHUANG: Yeah. \n\n And at least while I was here those were the only three when it got pared down to that, and that made sense, uh, but, uh, I know when president Laurie was here—and I came a year after his death. He was the one who built Laurie auditorium and all the other early buildings here.—Uh, he had aspirations for PhD—for PhD programs here, and that was soon realized that Trinity did not have the resources for that, and we didn’t really have the resources for a masters program. I had, my first year here, a masters student, and I actually started him on Sanskrit and he went on to become a professor at Northern Arizona University, and had a very good career, but he was the only graduate student here in his field, and that’s not a good environment for graduate studies. You want that interaction with lots of other students, at least a handful. He had none. \n\nHUANG: (laughs)\n\n And, uh, so, uh it was, uh, really pretty clear that we did not have the resources to do that, and in our department, there were six of us, when I first came here, and we were all in diverse areas. How did we afford to take the time to teach graduate courses as well as the undergrads? As you just noted, we were primarily undergraduate. So, other than a reading or conference type course, there weren’t suitable graduate courses available and no faculty to teach them. So, that, uh, that was the one time I taught Sanskrit. So, anything else before we get to retirement?\n\nHUANG: I was wondering, is that kind of like, niche of like there wasn’t a lot of, like, non-Western focus in the religion department and, like, all these niches of, like, there aren’t a lot of people in this particular area, is that part of what drew you to Trinity in the first place? \n\n Oh, what led me to Trinity, I missed that, didn’t I? What led me to Trinity was I wanted a primarily undergraduate teaching university or small college. I did not want an RO1 type research institution. Again, this is probably—I can say more than probably—definitely my father’s influence, even though he was at an RO1 institution, University of California, but, uh, teaching is what I wanted to do, and research was, uh, a second priority, at least for the first, uh, two or three decades of my time here, and when I looked at the jobs available—Universities had these placement offices, and so I went and looked over a period of a month, and saw this Trinity offer and it was much closer to, uh, my home—My parents were retired in Arizona.—and so I thought, Well that’s interesting, and small, undergraduate, so for Christmas I flew home. I was finishing up my dissertation, and was almost finished with it. By February, I was actually done with it, and I had the exam over it in—in May, but I knew I was basically completed when I went home for Christmas in Arizona,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=2100.0,2400.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and I just phoned up the department chair, a couple of days before I was going to fly back to Boston, and said “Well, I’m interested in your job offer,” and I’d written them that I was interested, “and on the way back I could fly into San Antonio, uh, before proceeding on to Boston.” And they said “Come on.”\n\nHUANG: (laughs)\n\nBROWN: And so I came here and my department chair, Guy Ransom, who I mentioned earlier, put me up in his daughter’s bedroom. I do need to clarify that his daughter was off at school. \n\nHUANG: (laughs)\n\nBROWN: And, uh, this would never happen today, uh, but I was there for two or three nights, and I didn’t have to teach anything. Now, that’s just standard practice. Any new professor comes in and has to give one or two demonstration lectures and so forth. I just sat in on a class, and was interviewed by the other members of the department, and at the end of the two days or three, they said “Well, here’s your contract if you would like to teach here.” and I said “Sure.” \n\nHUANG: (laughs)\n\nBROWN: And that was it. And that is so far from the process now. If you talk to professors who have been hired in the last thirty years, it’s a much more arduous hiring process, but that was then, but yes, it—Trinity, it lived up to its—what I hoped it would be. Good students, uh, the best students here were often better than the students I taught as a teaching fellow at Harvard, and the best students here, what really made them good was, uh—They didn’t have the sort of the Harvard student attitude of I’m among the best, and I can just get by without doing much. I didn't find a lot of that here among the best students. They were eager to learn, and the less skilled students, for the most part, uh, were still fun to teach if you taught fun things, and of course there are always some who you wish weren’t in your class, but that’s—that’s another story. \n\nHUANG: (laughs)\n\nBROWN: But, uh, now and then, to be able to do, uh, research with students, that was one thing I wasn’t able to do because of the language issue for most of my career because to do this research I was doing you needed Sanskrit, and then the rape occurred in India, and I had a student, uh, who had taken Asian Religions, and she was Indian, Nupur Agrawal, and she could speak the languages—two of the North Indian languages—and I decided why not do a field research with undergraduates. You know, the sciences, they easily do undergraduate research with students, because you put them up in the lab and you train them for two or three months, and they can do what’s—what’s needed there. Have you ever been an assistant in a lab? \n\nHUANG: I’m in a—I’m a research assistant in a psychology lab, so—\n\nBROWN: (speaking at the same time) Okay. \n\nHUANG: Not quite exactly the same, but—\n\nBROWN: With Hertel? \n\nHUANG: Unh-uh. Childers. \n\nBROWN: Oh, okay. Anyway, uh, to do research in what was initially my field, Sanskrit Indian studies, required four years of Sanskrit at the minimum. Students weren’t going to have that. But here was a student who spoke the languages I needed to do the field research that I didn’t have, and she was also a woman, and uh, so she, with—She traveled with her parents over there in India, because she basically went home to visit them during the summer, and she went to various universities and so forth and interviewed women about their experience with, uh, discrimination, sexual assault, and the like, and she did a survey—conducted a survey—and when she gathered all that information and so forth she came back. We wrote up a paper, and it was the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=2400.0,2700.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"first paper from the religion department that we—with an undergraduate—able to present at a national—American Academy of Religion meeting, and because that was, uh, for personal associations like the American Academy of Religion, they want, you know, original research, and here was original research with an undergraduate, and that’s probably, uh, my highlight in my own mind for my research career. Are we ready for retirement yet?\n\nHUANG: Yes. So, I want to ask about—There’s a Trinitonian article from 2019 that quoted you as saying that you felt you kind of fully lived out your role as a professor. Was that kind of the deciding factor of why you decided to retire that year? \n\nBROWN: Did I really say that? Boy, you’ve done your research.\n\nHUANG: (laughs)\n\nBROWN: Quite commendable. \n\nHUANG: Thank you. (laughs)\n\nBROWN: Uh, forty-five years—I—the major reason for retiring— and I think you’ll hear this from a lot of professors—I could barely face one more exam or paper to grade. \n\nHUANG: (laughs)\n\nBROWN: And the second, uh, reality—realization—was that there are a lot of young, new scholars who are just out there waiting for old guys like me to retire, who can come in and do, uh, I would say in my case even a better job, because I was probably the last generation where, uh, people in my field did textual studies for their research. If you don’t combine that with field studies, that would be, for me, a major failing in somebody who is going to come to a place like Trinity. You want that experience in the field, and so—and the people we got have that, who replaced me, and, uh, so—but, uh, I figured forty-five years was long enough, and I did get a leave, uh, one semester, paid leave and a full year half pay, for my last year, and normally they want you to come back, uh, after that for at least a semester, but they were glad to get rid of me, so they said “Yes, take your leave and goodbye.” And, uh, I don’t know if it’s quite that cynical when in fact I suspect it was not, but they figured forty-five years, they could afford that, that one semester, and I had—In order to get a leave, you have to put in for a project that you’re going to be working on, and so I put in for a book project. It came out in 2021, so I did complete it, and Mike Fischer, who was the dean at the time, in Academic Affairs—I’m not sure he ever thought I would finish it once I retired, but—I may not be proficient in dealing with the India heat, but I guess when I make up my mind to do something—I just wanted to make sure that got done. The major problem in getting it done was it was the first edited book I’ve ever done, and I’d always been warned and it was what I was expecting. Getting the participants to get their essays in on time, it’s just an ongoing battle, but it finally got done, and so I was proud of that, and totally unexpected, I was asked to write an article for a book on world creationism, and it was being edited by a good friend of mine, and I said “No, I’m retired,” he kept persisting, so I finally gave in and that was the last thing I did in that area. But, once I was retired, uh—Are we ready for retirement yet? \n\nHUANG: Sure, yeah, let’s go for it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=2700.0,3000.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBROWN:\u003c/strong\u003e Uh, I had, uh, and it was no secret to my department, but over the years, teaching comparative religion, world religion, courses on what is religion, uh, I had become, uh, quite nonreligious myself, but still interested, even fascinated by religion. But religious doctrines, when you study Buddhist and Hindu as well as Islamic and Christian and so forth, and realize the huge diversity of what believers in each tradition are absolutely certain that this is the truth, and Hindus who argue that “Well, we accept all religions, but the highest one is this one,” and, of course, it’s theirs, and I can no longer abide by that sort of thinking, and so since retirement I’ve gone in a totally different direction, still actively writing. My wife and I—she retired from the health science center at about the same time I did. She taught gross anatomy to first-year students and the history of anatomy.—we decided—We were living out in the hill country. We retired out to the Boerne area—to become Texas Master Naturalists, which we wanted to do for a number of years, but while we were working we couldn’t because the classes were taught during the week during the day, and so we took the class and became Master Naturalists in 2017—a little bit before retirement but I had that year off—and we—The Master Naturalist program is all geared toward creating volunteers to go out on various projects of conservation, water resources, uh, light pollution, native plants, all—I don’t know how familiar you are with Master Naturalist programs, but a number of states have them and Texas has seventy chapters or so in various areas and we did the Hill Country chapter out in Kerrville, and one of the field trips that was required was, uh, a field trip to Honey Creek State Natural Area, which is just eight miles from our home, as it turned out. Fell in love with the place, it’s one of the few pristine creeks left in Texas, and we contacted the person in charge of those hikes and we took the—the program, became certified, and have led hikes there, public walks, interpretive walks, since 2018, with one year off for COVID when the parks closed down, basically. But we also found, my wife and I, that, being interested in history—we looked for histories of Guadalupe River State Park and found there wasn’t really anything suitable. There were a couple of things that, uh, in archaeology and so forth that were sort of the initial surveys. Whenever the state wants to acquire property they do baseline surveys to see what are the plants there, what are the animals there, what’s—what are the archaeological things, but they read sort of like a telephone book, uh, and who owned what property and how many kids they had, and there wasn’t a story connected with it. So my wife and I decided to write a book on the cultural and natural history of Guadalupe River State Park and Honey Creek State Natural Area environs, and that’s taken up a lot of our sort of scholarly efforts over the last four years. It’s about three-quarters written. Uh, Texas A\u0026M University Press is quite interested in the book. It’ll still have to go through the peer review process, but, and uh—It’s nice as a retired faculty emeritus that I still have library privileges, so I was just here two days ago getting more books out on the Karankawa Indians, since a couple of our chapters deal with the Indians in the hill country, or the indigenous peoples of the hill country,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=3000.0,3300.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and, uh you’ve probably never heard of the Karankawas. Very interesting, but not relevant here to your concern with Asian studies, so anything else? \n\nHUANG: Uh, looking back, how do you think that kind of your experiences at Trinity have shaped you as a person?\n\nBROWN: Well, one thing which was why retirement was never a problem, uh, is that I never identified myself with what I—with my role. So, I know a lot of people that retire, suddenly they feel their life is meaningless. That’s not to say that Trinity, obviously, didn’t have an impact on it—which was your question—and, uh—I’m trying to think how to differentiate Trinity’s impact over against just the impact of growing old, because I think most people, as they grow older, become more tolerant—I suppose that’s not always the case—more empathetic, and, dealing with students for forty-five years, even share a lot of their stories, their histories. You share some of your own, if you’re so inclined, and so, just trying to think about the major impact. I guess empathy for the female students in American education, probably the biggest impact. \n\nHUANG: That kind of statement about how you kind of never, like, made your identity completely about kind of like your role at Trinity, kind of reminds me, there’s—There was an article in the Trinitonian that quoted you as—like on your philosophy on life, where you said, uh—\n\nBROWN: [to Tsai] She did too much research. \n\nHUANG: (laughs) Uh, where you said that if you think of life as an agenda of things to be done, you miss the meaning, and, I think that that—\n\nBROWN: (speaking at the same time) Yep, that would fit in.\n\nHUANG: Really reminds me of it, and so, kind of, tell me about that kind of conviction, where it kind of came from, and like how it’s carried over over the course of your career. \n\nBROWN: Well, I guess, some of that’s due to my father, who was very much, as I said, a devotee of this Hindu saint, and that was a worldview that, uh—You know, some people are brought up Christian, or Muslim, or Catholic, or something, and I was brought up with this sort of Hindu background, but the Hinduism that embraces a perennial philosophy—if you’re not familiar with that term, it goes back to Aldous Huxley—that all religious traditions have a wisdom tradition that’s basically identical through all of their traditions, but the one where it shines through the most closely, is, guess what, Hinduism. And, uh, so when I started taking courses in Hinduism in graduate school, in Sanskrit, I realized that much of what my father believed, uh, was simply, uh—how do I say it kindly—wrong. (laughs) There’s no other word for it. And, uh, so that, I guess, was part of what began my, uh, push towards atheism, and I have always admired what community building religions can do, but, all too often, that community building sometimes is built by excluding others, and uh, but that’s the doctrinal part as I’ve said before, the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=3300.0,3600.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/transcript/89198/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that really made no sense. With all of that, then, and probably the impact of, uh, my father’s perennial philosophy, which is that we’re not really—our individuality is not all that important. We are a part of communities or something larger. And combine that with Buddhism and the idea that things are constantly changing. What I am today is not what I was thirty years ago or fifty years ago or seventy years ago. And, uh, so how can I identify with any—I mean there’s the memory, there’s continuity. Buddhists don’t deny continuity, but it’s constantly changing. And to cling to any one of them just leads to misery, and so my teaching role, I did it as best I could, but then—Actually, I’m still teaching, but it’s teaching out at Honey Creek. (laughs) The different native plants, and the flora and fauna and geology that’s out there, and the great thing there is I don’t have to grade exams afterwards. \n\nHUANG: (laughs)\n\nBROWN: Uh, so, but, uh, who knows? In a few years, I may have, uh, cognitive decline. Certainly I don’t have the memory I did when I was your age, but that’s to be expected, but it’s just part of the constant changing, and so, I guess, does that even in part answer your question?\n\nHUANG: Yes, absolutely. \n\nBROWN: Okay.\n\nHUANG: And, before we end here today, is there anything else you’d like to share or talk about?\n\nBROWN: Well, it’s sort of fun going back and remembering these things, uh, thinking about all those—the sorts of questions you—you had for me to respond to, and so I thank you for the opportunity.  \n\nHUANG: (both speaking at once) Thank you for being here. \n\nBROWN: And, uh, and, you know when I say that I don’t identify myself as a Trinity professor, uh, anymore—or I suppose I didn’t identify ever as a Trinity professor as my identity, it was so strange responding to you, because how did I sign it?—Always said Dr. Brown. I haven’t used Dr. Brown in six years. \n\nHUANG: Huh. Damn.\n\nBROWN: And I—“Oh this is a student.” (laughs)\n\nHUANG: (laughs) I didn’t even think about that. \n\nBROWN: So—\n\nHUANG: Oh my gosh. (laughs)\n\nBROWN: And, uh, well there’s no reason why you would. You probably just thought that was the standard, but no. Nobody calls me doctor anymore. I’m on the board of the Friends of Guadalupe River State Park. I’m just Mack to them—Mack for Mackenzie— and so, identities change. And, but, well this has been fun, and I hope there’s something there that’s useful to people. I can’t imagine in fifty years, but you never know, because I know one of the fun things currently I’m doing is going back and reading all these obscure things that I find here and there that people at the time never thought would be relevant a hundred years later, but neat little insights. Have you heard of Stephen F. Austin? \n\nHUANG: Uh-huh. \n\nBROWN: I first read about him three or four years ago, but just recently I’ve been reading about his statements about the Karankawa Indians that I mentioned earlier. Oh my God, he was such a horrible person when it came to the Indians, however much you may admire him as the father of Texas. So, anyway, I think I’ve said enough. \n\nHUANG: Thank you so much for being here, for doing this. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it. \n\nBROWN: Well thank you, Cat. \n\n[END OF INTERVIEW]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=3600.0,3893.0"}]},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/index/90589","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Interview with Dr. Mackenzie Brown 01-28-2026 13:17 [Index]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/index/90589/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Introduction","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=0.0,40.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/index/90589/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Huang begins the interview with the standard scripted opening, stating the date that the recording takes place. She also details the identities of the narrator, interviewer, and equipment monitor,  topical interests of the interview, connection to a Trinity University oral history course, and its final intended archival location. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=0.0,40.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/index/90589/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Partial Transcript\tHuang: Good?  Tsai: Yeah.  Huang: Today is October 18th, 2024. I am Catherine Huang, a student at Trinity University, and today I am interviewing Dr. C. Mackenzie Brown. 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He praises the students at Trinity, and goes more into detail about his work with student Nupur Agrawal on The Rape That Woke Up India, which he calls the highlight of his research career. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=2279.0,2741.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/index/90589/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Brown: So, anything else before we get to retirement?   Huang: I was wondering, is that kind of, like, niche of there wasn’t a lot of, like, non-Western focus in the religion department and like all of these niches of like there aren’t a lot of people in this particular area, is that part of what drew you to Trinity in the first place?   Brown: Oh, what led me to Trinity; I missed that, didn’t I? 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He then talks about how he decided to pursue an interest in natural history in his retirement, becoming a Texas Master and moving out to the Texas Hill Country. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881#t=2742.0,3317.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2913/collection_resources/140518/file/259881/index/90589/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Brown: Are we ready for retirement yet?   Huang: Yes! So, I want to ask about a- There’s a Trinitonian article from 2019 that quoted you as saying that you felt that you had kind of fully lived out your role as a professor. Was that kind of the deciding factor of why you decided to retire that year? 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