{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/7w6736n88n/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Interview with Dr. Ellen Riojas-Clark"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/173/original/Logo_CL_ColorReversed.png?1773939905","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eInterview with Ellen Riojas-Clark. TU Treasures Oral History Collection. UAOH003-011. Coates Library Special Collections and Archives. Trinity University (San Antonio, Tex.).\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Trinity University Special Collections and Archives"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThe materials in this collection may be protected by copyright law (Title 17, U.S. Code). The materials are available for personal, educational, and scholarly use. It is the responsibility of the researcher to locate and obtain permission from the copyright owner or his or her heirs for any other use, such as reproduction and publication.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["TU Treasures Oral History Collection"]}},{"label":{"en":["Participants"]},"value":{"en":["Dr. Ellen Riojas-Clark (Interviewee)","Seb Mora (Interviewer)","Lee Denney (Monitor)","archives@trinity.edu (Metadata contact)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2023-06-20 (captured)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["San Antonio (Tex.) (spatial)","1971-1974 (temporal)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["MP3"]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["UAOH003-011 (local)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Conmemorando a la Comunidad: Latinx Experiences at Trinity University (is part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral History","Sound Recording"]}}],"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThe materials in this collection may be protected by copyright law (Title 17, U.S. Code). The materials are available for personal, educational, and scholarly use. 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I'm Seb Mora, a student at Trinity University. And today I'm interviewing Dr. Ellen Riojas-Clark. Dr. Riojas-Clark was a student at Trinity University during the year ‘72 and ‘73. I am joined by Lee Denney who will be monitoring the recording equipment. The interview today will mainly focus on Dr. Riojas-Clark's time spent at Trinity University as well as for Latina- As well as how her Latina identity shaped her journey through higher education. This interview is being recorded for the project Conmemorando a la Comunidad: Latinx experiences at Trinity University and archived with the University Archives, part of Trinity University's Special Collections and archives in Coates Library. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Well, that's well. I want to make a clarification. I graduated officially in ’74, but I finished school in December of ‘73. \n\nMORA: Okay, thank you for the clarification. So for our first question, what was it like for you growing up? Walk me through some of your earliest childhood memories, of family, friends, community, schooling, and the places you have lived. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: So I grew up in San Antonio in the north side. And if you're my age, that tells you exactly the social segregation, economic and geographical of San Antonio. My family was economically deprived, but we never lived on the West Side. So, my grandfather was on St. Mary’s Street. My family's home was on St. Mary’s Street right by the strip where all the Trinity students go. And so that area of Mistletoe and then my family, my dad, we did from here on. I was in the SISD [SAISD] district, but later on after I finished my siblings went to Northeast. And only because it was seeing as the houses were better and so forth, even though we didn't have a lot. So that's the clarification as to where I went. So that determined a lot of what my being is that I grew up in a white neighborhood, went to white schools all the way up. Majority white schools. Latino students in my high school came in at the junior year in Edison High School, that at that time was like what say 90% white. But seven students came in at our junior year and graduated with us. So, that kind of spells out something. So, the difference for me was that I grew up in the same neighborhood with the same kids. Maybe not early elementary school because my dad worked in Alamo Heights. And so I went to kindergarten, which was unusual for somebody for my age now in Alamo Heights. At Alamo Heights Methodist church! So, from then on, you know, we were in this side. And so the kids I grew up with were all the same ones. I was the only Latina then in my immediate neighborhood. What set me apart too was the fact that we were Methodists. And it set me apart from other Latinos was that we were Methodists. And my mother's family was Methodists. Her family came from Monterrey, Mexico. And then they moved to the Fort Worth Dallas area. So that's the area my mother grew up in. And she grew up in, I guess, segregated neighborhood. But she was very, very fair–– fairer than your archivist [referring to Schnur], in a sense. And she was larger. So she'd look German. People said she looked German. I don't know if she did or not, but anyway. She was my mom. But she experienced discrimination. And always said, told us we were going to learn English well. She gave us English sounding names. My name is really Mary Ellen. \n\nMORA: That's also my grandmother's name. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Huh?\n\nMORA: That's my grandmother's name. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Oh, sorry. (laughter) My dad, when it, can I tell you a personal story? My dad, wanted a name, my dad was from San Antonio in the South,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=0.0,283.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"not South Texas, but in this area. And he was 39 when he got married for the first time. And my mother was 29. So they were older, right? And my dad, wanted to name me Maria Elena, which I thought, ‘what a lovely name!’ And so my mother thought it was a name of an old girlfriend, because he was, you know, Maria Elena, my name was a 39-year-old man, right? And I guess he couldn't convince her. Anyway, I found out much later that my name is that on the, on the birth certificate, but I never knew that. Wow. With my mother from very beginning called me Mary. All of us, everybody called me Mary Ellen. And then for some reason, my first grade, there were two or three Mary Ellen's. So one got called Mary, one got called Mary Ellen. And I got called Ellen. So from second grade on, I've been known as Ellen. (laughter) Long story short, right? I do not look like an Ellen Clark. And this is another aside. It's, you know, 80 years old. I've taught for 40 years. So I got a hell of a lot of stories. But I was teaching a grad––graduate class in Lytle, Texas, which is about 30 minutes south of here. And when they heard that Dr. Ellen Clark was coming to teach, I arrived at the class and there was a petition and sign against me by the five Latinos that were there in the class of 35 or 32. And when I walked in, they just sat on the petition because I don't look like my name because I use it on occasion because I'm very politically active. And so I use it on occasion. And I'll say, I'm Dr. Ellen Clark. I always put in Dr. Ellen Riojas-Clark. My uncle married an Irish woman way back when they during World War II and her name was Mary Ellen Clark. What are the chances of that, right? And I did not look like her. So, so I established socially and geographically where I grew up and how that shaped my being. I had two–– three siblings and the two younger ones were well—we all went to the same schools, but of course I was way ahead of them. And one day my brother, my youngest brother who had gone on to school and so forth, was berating my dad, why didn't we grow up in the west side? And my dad not understanding what my brother was saying. My dad didn't grow up on the west side. But what my brother was saying, I understood what he was saying. ‘Why didn't we grow up where people like me, where others look like me and understood me, I grew up different’. Though he was very popular in school and was successful in school, I didn't realize how it had affected him. And to make a lot of it and I had to explain, you know, Dad was trying to do the best for us, you know, that kind of thing. \n\nBut anyway, growing up with the same group of people, I didn't have––that I remember because I'm sure there were occasions when I was looked down upon or discriminated, but I didn't, I might not have recognized it. I did not recognize it or see it. And to this day I still have friends from elementary school. So I didn't realize that until, and when the seven students came in, the Latino students came in to Edison, I didn't really know them, I was a bookworm. I was not a social being like I am now. I did not lift my head up from the book and I wasn't out to make friends. And so I told, I didn't get to know them until 20 years after we graduated. And Edison at that time had their motto was, is that you probably know, was the Golden Bears. And so now we call ourselves the Brown Bears. \n\nMORA: Oh, yeah.\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: So we had, we would have the big reunions and I would invite them over here. And we just had one maybe a month ago. And the seven Brown Bears who's now reduced to about the four. So that was my growing up experience. And now that I think about it, I didn't, I just knew I was me. I didn't think anything else about it. My mother was a huge reader.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=283.0,583.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So we read all the time and we went to the bookmobile. At that time there was something called a bookmobile ––Y’all don't know what that is. And we literally in the summertime take a wagon, pile it up with books and bring them home to read. We didn't have a television. So that was our entertainment. And so our family, and even in our white neighborhood, we’re known as, what now the word is nerds. They called me bookworm. They call me all those kinds of things. So that was my - I have an artificial eye that I have had out since I was four years old. But the sun bothers my eyes. Always have dark eyes. And that nothing is really like. And I had huge horrible looking braids. Big old braids. It would just automatically feel like that. So needless to say, it was not, I looked and sounded more like a Mary Ellen than I did a Maria Elena. Because I always thought like now, I think if I had been named Maria Elena, I would have a nice soft sounding voice, and I would have been dainty and wore Mary Jane shoes. And I wouldn't have had the hair that I have. But that's what life is right. So anyway. So, so in my neighborhood in, in, on Olmos and San Francisco was white and we didn't know many people. We went to a white Methodist church. Los Angeles Methodist church that now is was bought out by, I don't know, has now become a Spanish-speaking one. And my mother would always say, y'all are going to learn Spanish when you can learn it well. We, I don't want y'all to code switch the word. But, you know, so when you get older, we'll, we'll practice the Spanish which, you know, I know about language learning now. I know that's not ever going to happen, you know. But I did concentrate on that. So, about the age of 15, I discovered brown boys, right? Because I went to church one time with my mom and I thought, ‘oh, wow, I missed out on all this.’ So, really, that was, that was the, my mother was smart. Because I was not popular, I was not anything. But I thought it was due to my nerdiness, not anything else. (coughs) So, she took us, late at night, my brothers, my two brothers, my sisters, stated the Methodist, Los Angeles Heights Methodist church. So, they didn't have, they didn't want to leave, you know, they have, basketball games and why I have, I had their social life at that church. But mine when I discovered boys is when I went over there. And then I was looked down upon by them because Ididn't speak Spanish. And because I didn't live, where did you grow up? [referring to Mora] \n\nMORA: I grew up on West Side San Antonio. But I lived all over. So, I lived in South Side for a little bit, at West Side in the summers of my Dad. And then now I lived Northwest. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Yeah. And so, people judged you by where you live. And even, even if they, my academic life, I had one colleague who was like, being living with the South Side, always say to other people, ‘ Oh you know, she's just a Northsider.’ And at that time, that just established–– people understood what that meant. And I thought it was all, I had to tell them it's not fair because people don't know what that means. You're putting me down as a male, you're putting me down in front of our colleagues. You know, don't say that if you continue. Oh well. But anyway, that was my bringing. So, starting to go to the Methodist Church, Spanish-speaking one, concentrate on learning Spanish, etcetera. And then discovered that was a natural kind of a leader, which would have never happened elsewhere. So, I don't think. So, my MYF [Methodist Youth Fellowship] days, as a Methodist, you fellowship. We would have summer camps. And we would go to Kerrville [Texas], so, you know, my summers or Colorado and things like that, but summer camps. And then you learn leadership skills then. So, for me, that was a big thing that happened. So, that was my growing up. Did I answer that? \n\nMORA: Yes.\n\n \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: the question? Probably more than you wanted. \n\nMORA: No, no, no. I appreciate your answer. I appreciate how long it's been.\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: I am being honest, okay? Because I know that for me, it's going to be Trinity is going to reap some benefits from the honesty of this. \n\nMORA: Exactly. Next question. Upon researching your prior, upon researching you prior to this interview, I found that you had an unconventional college experience. What aspects of your life and influence this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=583.0,883.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And by unconventional, of course, I mean, by first starting with a community college and then university, as well as marrying young and having kids, young. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Good for you, that you already know that, good. \n\nMORA: So, yes, what aspects of your life and influenced this? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: I got married, yeah. I met my husband in church. He's older than me. And he's a Clark, right? But for me, his mother didn't speak English. And I was astonished that they ate rice and beans every single day. In fact, we were just talking about the bean eating. And you must taste it, because I think it's tasty. And so that I met him in church. But at first, he's a little older, but my mother had a heart attack. So no I couldn't go out with him. But anyway, came back later and worked out okay. And so, married young, graduated from Edison in May. Got married in July. On the way to church, my dad says, ‘What is, do you want anything? What do you want? Don't worry about it.’ And I knew what he was asking me. Do you want to go through this? I said, yeah, dad, I'm going to have a hot hamburger, flippant answer. ‘Okay, well go get a hamburger and don't worry about anything else. So that told me they had married late in life. So they weren't happy about me, marrying early and not going to college, because that was my mother's dream was for all of us to go to college. And I promised my mother that I would go to college. I would not give up that my dream, because I liked to study, you know. And so I remember telling her, I'm, I'm like, I’m not going to have any children until I'm 21. And she said, ‘you should be graduating when you're 21.’ She had the right answer. So consequently, had my two daughters. My husband suffers a debilitating stroke at a very high age. So he had a stroke at the age of 30, 36 or 33. And, and he's 92 so long time ago, he was a cap–– incapacitated for long time. He had gone to Trinity, gotten his BA and almost finished his masters in biology. But his professor at Trinity committed suicide. He didn't continue -I know, ain’t that wild? And, and he was looking into algae and getting samples from Woodlawn Lake and so forth, which I thought, ‘come on, you got to finish!’ But anyway, that's his story. And so that set me on––my parents sat down and said, ‘you've got to, you've got to provide, you've got to do, which, you know, you said you're going to do that. You're already having two kids and it's time for you to start.’ \n\nSo as soon as my oldest Judy was five, went to kindergarten and Jennifer was four. And they're in kindergarten. I started SAC [San Antonio College] you know, part time, and absolutely found–– I was always a great reader. I mean, we always have always, always. But found a lot of things. One was one professor who was white –and, I, right now his name escapes me, which happens to you when you're 80, teaching Mexican American history that I took as an elective and never having heard any of that. Never, ever, ever, ever, ever. Another aside, when I was in third grade, the teacher's talking about the Alamo and how they shot all the Mexicans and I don't know how many hundreds it killed. And I remember saying, because I was always asked the questions, ‘That's not, that that couldn't have happened.’ Those guns in those days, you had to put the gunpowder in and push it in and go like this, and then you killed one person, and then you had to do the same thing for another one, and I thought there weren’t very many people in the Alamo -And she had a heart attack when I said that. But anyway, so for me, hearing Mexican history is a real, real eye opener. And that was as an elective because I knew I was going to go to SAC. Oh, one other story. When I graduated from high school, I got a scholarship to Trinity for $2,000. And don't ask me how––I got it through the Methodist church. So I knew that I could go to SAC for very little money. And which I did. (cough) I was into literature, the humanities, not in mathematics. And when I was in high school, the coach, which was, apparently, very common, the coach taught algebra. And he was a scary white. Don't forget. He was a horrible","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=883.0,1183.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"(pause) discipliner. So I didn't take algebra. So I started taking algebra at SAC because I had to have the death of me. It was because I did it, but, but it was not easy. All the other courses were fine. So I finished SAC in two years. My parents were invaluable because they took––help took care the kids, also because they wanted. Yeah, just finished. And because they knew that I had to do, provide. And so then I went to Trinity and, and Mr. What was his name? He was Methodist from our church. He was a financial officer. His son became the attorney general. Daniel Morales. Yeah. So Daniel Morales was the financial officer. And I remembered going and asking for her kind of packages I could have. And I said, Oh, you know, I got the scholarship for $2,000, and, you know, at Trinity. And I guess he investigated and I ended up getting it. So I was so happy about that. And then through the Methodist Church giving you, giving you scholarships. I guess that was some kind of arrangement we could, I mean, we had to apply for into the United Methodist Church of Nashville Tennessee. We all got scholarships. I got scholarships. And I know that other Methodist got scholarships also. And then (coughs) what made it easier was that I knew, I thought I was going to go into education, teaching elementary school. And because I love, I love going with my kids and I read every book. They could start, they started reading at an early age, and all of that, you know. So then, at that time, there was some federal programs that if you taught, they would forgive the, I forgot what they're called. They would forgive. For every year you taught, they would forgive whatever you owed. And so that made it the best thing in the world. Kind of like the military that they can go in. I didn't owe anything when I got through Trinity because of those financial packages. So I think that's important for Trinity to know that that scholarships and financial aid is just a big, big determiner for kids’ success. And then, at Trinity, they asked me, well, I got through with that. So is this another, another answer if I'm going into what, what happened to me in Trinity? \n\nMORA: Yeah, that is another question. \n\nSo thank you for sharing. I also had a very similar experience of taking a Latin American studies course through Palo Alto College in high school. And once I was taking this course, I was like, I need more. I need to know more. So that's why I'm doing Global Latinx studies at Trinity. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK; Yeah, it was exactly––I mean, I give thanks to the community college because, number one, I was a non-traditional student coming back and then I was successful. I knew I was going to be successful, but you don't know you're successful until you get the grades right? And even though I had to take algebra three times, I knew I wasn’t dumb. I knew I could do it. -And my kids were fabulous in math. So yeah, it was a big difference in that. But my time at Trinity was non-traditional. Number one, I went to community college, like you said, and community college really opened my eyes that I started taking Spanish, algebra, and all, but my requirements. Because I was foresighted enough to know that I was not going to go to any of our Lady of the Lake or St. Mary's or any of those schools. So the only choice that for me was that I was going to go to Trinity because it affiliated with my religious background number one. And it was closer to me too. But because that had been what I intended to go to before, because of the Methodist help. And so when I went to Trinity, I was a non-traditional student because I was older, I had children, and I'd gone to the community college. So I went very task-oriented to Trinity to get my degree in elementary education. And that was a really great experience for me. Dr. John Moore was, he was a really young dean. And he was very progressive. And for me, it was just really progressive view about education. So I hadn't had any experience training and education before. But I knew from all my reading that he was being progressive.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=1183.0,1483.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So it fit me. And so then we had to do student teaching. And I was put to student teach in high school. What was the school? Again, right on Broadway, right before the high school. Well Trinity still does student teaching there. And they put me in the kindergarten, because I was early childhood, also, which meant kindergarten and elementary school. And they put me there because there was a classroom teacher who was, they were just starting the bilingual program. So they put me there because I spoke some Spanish -my Spanish was okay, you know-, and got into the classroom and realized, oh my God, I have no idea what's going on in this classroom how to teach. I can teach in one language. How do I teach in two languages? But they put me there only because I was Spanish speaker. But it was a great experience for me because I realized what I did not know that I thought I might have known everything and I didn't know. And then at that same time, UTSA [University of Texas at San Antonio] was opening up. So that was my experience at Trinity. You had asked me about extracurricular. So is that later on in the question? Okay. \n\nSCHNUR: May I have a follow up question? Sorry. Given the time period that you were there in the early 70s in the education department, did you have any interaction with Learning About Learning Educational Foundation? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Was that a course? \n\nSCHNUR: It was kind of an offshoot program research center with Trinity between the Theater Department and the Education Department. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: I think that happened after I left.\n\nSCHNUR: Okay.\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Because I was there in 72. \n\nSCHNUR: It started right in 72 so it was probably still––. And they had programs within Milam Elementary.  \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Oh no, that was after me. I thought that was the best thing. That was John Moore. \n\nSCHNUR: Yeah. He's definitely assisted with that. Yeah. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Yeah. No. My early childhood teacher, I’ve forgotten her name. She was a really short little lady. Her last name started with a C. Anyway, she was great. But no, that that was not. But yeah. But after that, I definitely became aware of it. But I decided to go to UTSA because I had a bilingual bicultural program. That's what I knew I needed. Okay. So, next question. Yeah. I didn't realize it started then. \n\nMORA: Okay, going back to the question I just asked. Now that everything is said and done. Like having children early, marrying early, would you do anything differently? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Yes. (laughter) Yes. I would have waited and followed my parents’ advice and gone to school and then got married. Because I would, you know, he had already been in the Army. He already had his BA in the Army and an MA. It would have been a better, you know, yes, better. I think. And number one, nobody can forecast. I always knew I was going to go to school. I just didn't forecast what the future was. Yeah. So, absolutely. And I would have still gone to Trinity. \n\nMORA: Okay. \n\nSCHNUR: Can you ask about Con Safo at this point? \n\nMORA: Would you like to form–– frame your question? Because I don't know what you’re looking for. \n\nSCHNUR: Yeah. So, in some of our research, we found, because we were researching students and we started learning about the Con Safo art collective. And in a couple of articles, it mentioned that you were a secretary or a note taker for the collective. And so, I wanted to hear how you became involved with that group because we know some of the members attended Trinity around the same time. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: They did, they did. And they’ve never been contacted, by the way. \n\nSCHNUR: I know. And we're hoping to definitely contact with the other members this summer. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: I’m going to give you a bunch of names. \n\nSCHNUR: But I was just hoping that you could share how you became involved. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Okay. I thought it was coming later in the question. Absolutely. There was no other -Socially, I was not around, except at that time, Andy Hernandez, who was a Methodist -He was an undergraduate student. You know, I was an undergraduate student, but we're separated in age. – And his, at that time, fiancé Laura Avina, I don't know if you all heard. Okay. She married Andy Hernandez and she was my flower girl later on. So, you know how different the generational gap was there. So, they were going there. And Andy was very,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=1483.0,1783.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"because our church is, Methodist church is, very socially active. And we believe a lot in service. So, I knew them from church. And so, the hookup was natural with them. I'm sorry, Laura was my flower girl before she went to Trinity, before she met Andy. I should have clarified that. But anyway, so those are the two that I knew. Andy then was involved at that time in the public policy program was very big. And our former city manager was there, Alex Briseño. And so, met him and met a lot of the other Latino, so part of the public policy. But then along with that, we undergraduate students, were Santos Martinez, whom, I don't remember exactly how I met him. He remembers. He remembers my walking down the hall and something. Anyway, became friends with him. Oh, I think because I was always interested in arts. My mother was always interested in art. And another aside, we didn't have a lot, but my mother would have all these magazines and stuff, and she would cut out pictures of famous paintings and put them in a frame and set us in front of them. I was the only that paid attention, my sibling didn’t. But, and my mother painted, and it was very creative. \n\nSo, I started going to the lot of the art shows with Elizabeth Ridenhouse. And would attend those things during my time there, because of my interest. And that's where I think I met Santos. And at that other point, there was a couple of others. And then he invited me to the meeting with the Con Safo group that they asked me to join. But I was not an artist, but an art appreciator. And I knew about art. And that was, to me, the most dynamic time at Trinity. And this is parallel to my then going to the Spanish Department at Trinity, where Dick Woods, who was a Spanish professor, and she was an adjunct professor. Margie Stovall took classes in Spanish with her, in Spanish history, because like you, it made me aware that there's a big world in the Spanish-speaking history thing. And Dick Woods was a Spanish literature, but then he started teaching Mexican American literature. I'm going, Huh, never knew this existed. But there were all males. There were all male authors at that time, which was the 60s. Y’know, so, and I then became very aware of the Mexican American literary things going on. So outside his class, I became involved in the literary section by Pickett, who was writing and so forth. And then the Con Safo group was at that same time. \n\nSo you can say that I tell them at Trinity, my awakening, my awakening in terms of my identity as a Mexican-American and a Chicana is at Trinity. And nobody believes me, but it was. It was. And if it hadn't been for that, I don't know that I would have been directed the way I am. So I definitely give credit to people like Elizabeth and Dick Woods. And what’s happened? He died right?  Dick Woods? \n\nSCHNUR: I don’t know for certain but,\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: I think he just, \n\nSCHNUR: I’m sure he did—\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Once he retired, he left. Margie Stovall was terrific. And we would have, tertulias -that I never knew what that word meant, which means afternoon, so raise and gather. And since I have this house, they would all actually come do it at the house. So we always had these things. And it was not just very few Latinos, but it was, you know, practicing Spanish and so forth. Fabulous and cooking and that kind of thing. I'm a big culinary person. So that became part of that. And then. So again, these things are going together. And then they come together, the arts and the literature stuff. [cough] And so then Santos, Santos, I guess, went and told the group. And at that time the group was very small. Felipe Reyes—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=1783.0,2083.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"didn't Felipe go to Trinity? \n\nSCHNUR: Mhmm\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Yeah, that's where! Ah, okay, the group was there already in Trinity. So that's how I met Felipe too. And he's still alive, by the way. Have y’all been? \n\nSCHNUR: We have his phone number. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Yeah, he's not coming out a lot, but, but, but he was there in Santos and José Garza. José Garza, Oh my God! José Garza was hilarious. And another time I'll tell you stories about him. So that's what it was. We started meeting there at Trinity with these guys and they invited me to the meeting with Mel Casas, who was really the head of it at that time from SAC, who, I guess I had met him at SAC, because he remembers that I had met him at SAC. And we started meeting with them. And they asked me to be there because, you know, my interest in art and my beginning knowledge about Mexican identity, the academic aspect of that. So we met for, I don't know, two or three years -for whichever it was-, until ––but that was the beginning. And then we would meet at the different artists' house. Well, they're all single. One time we were meeting with Giselle Mazán and the discussions were intense. Intense about what is Chicano art. Is there such a genre? There were very intellectual discussions. Very intellectual discussion. Is it a genre? Is it, you know, so they’re exploring all this going through it. And one day they’re about to throw each other, a physical fight. And of course, they would drink beer and so far. I didn’t, but they would drink beer. And I’m thinking, what am I doing sitting here? I’m a mother of two kids. And they're going to have a fight? The police are going to come. And what the hell am I doing here? And so I told them, that's it. I'm not, you know, y'all can meet at the house here. And then y'all can go drink or whatever you're going to do. I mean, you know, and that's what happened. Yeah. But that was this beginning, was at Trinity. So again, it was my awakening. Did that answer the question? \n\nSCHNUR: Absolutely. Thank you so much.\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: And thank you for reminding me about Felix. Because then they go off to Michigan. \n\nSCHNUR: Yes.\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: To Wisconsin.  To school in Michigan, yeah. \n\nMORA: And now we can dive deeper into, like, your experience at Trinity. So once you've became settled into the routine of the semester schedules, what did a typical day as a student at Trinity look like for you? And what did commuting look like for you as well as attending and doing the best you can during school while caring for children? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Okay. Are you talking about a Trinity community or the outside community? \n\nMORA: Trinity. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Okay. My social life was not big at Trinity other than this sparse starting. And then the Trinity students that I knew that would come here to the house. And then it's when it developed into the going out to the Con Safo group. So at Trinity, it was just strictly within the Education Department. My life was very, very disciplined. I would drop my kids off at school, go to class, work every day, so it was that I would go to either Monday, Wednesday or Friday or Tuesday and Thursday. And the other time was, you know, here. So we studied here at the house. So we'd not really, I would go to the library. But just -At that time you had to check out books. Okay? So I would go check out my books, bring them back and do here. So, my social life at Trinity was limited other than what we did in education––in the Education Department. And do I remember much about that? Not really. There was education groups. And I would do, you know, I would belong to it. But regarding the professional aspect of the group and not necessarily the social aspect of the education groups. [In] The larger Trinity community, I did not participate in it unless there were art exhibits that I could go to during the day and go do that. I would take my kids to the–– they had a wonderful theater. So we always had season tickets to the theater, always. And then all the children's things that they would do. So in that sense, my family and social life meshed. Not necessarily that I did it with –– with other Trinity students. In my Education Department, there was nobody else who was married except me. I had several very good friends.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=2083.0,2383.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"One of them who had some problems with their parents that were very rich. And she would –– she had problems and she ended up living with us for about six months. And –– because she and her family didn't get together again. And another student also that was there had problems so they came and stayed with us. Because at this time this bedroom was clean. And so that would be, I don't consider that a social one other than helping somebody out. But they were my friends. I mean, I would have never done it if they hadn't been my friends.  You know you always have to have friends. \n\nMORA: Do you remember having any Latinx professors or instructors? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Any what? \n\nMORA: Latinx professors? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Oh, yeah, that's what I thought you had asked. No, no. There was a couple of people in the Spanish department that were from Mexico, but I didn't have them as teachers. The only two teachers in the Spanish department I had were Dick Woods and, and ––what's her name?–– Stovall, Kathy [Margie]. Stovall, Ms. Stovall. And they were not, not Latino. And nobody in the Education Department. \n\nMORA: Alrighty. My follow-up question. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Any other questions I’ll take. \n\nMORA: My follow-up question was, what were your relationships like with these professors and instructors? So Dick Woods and—\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK:  Margie Stovall. \n\nMORA: Margie Stovall. You already spoke on these relationships, but is there anything else you missed that you would like to comment on? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: I think the Spanish department at that time was under Jean Chittendon. Yeah. And she was a real open person, really into Spanish and all of that. And then a couple of the other white professors that were also into the Mexican or Spain literature. But I think it's under Chittendon leadership that made it really, really easy. So my relationship with the ones that had in class were very good. And with Jean, they were also very good. So she would come over a lot. And even after I left, we continued to invite them over and so forth. So they were relationships that extended after Trinity also. Which I think speaks too well to Trinity.\n\nMORA: So this question you already kind of answered. Did you participate in any student organizations? Your answer was no. So I knew that you were aware of organizations. How did you become aware of these organizations? And did most of the organizations feel welcoming of Latinx students? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: I think they invited every Education major or Early Childhood major to join these organizations. So that's how I became aware of them, because the professors would always say, you know, you need a professional organization. So that's why I would go to that. Nothing else outside of that. I did not belong to the Spanish club, for example. When my husband was there, they had a Latino organization. Did you all know that? (Mora, Denney and Schnur shake their heads affirmatively) Oh wow, I didn’t. So they had Latino organizations that had 20 something students. But there was nothing like that at my age when I would be. \n\nMORA: What was your general sense of belonging on campus? Did you feel like you fit in or belonged to Trinity? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: I, again, remember I grew up in a white neighborhood. So that had been my life and been to all this, well, until I graduated high school, you know, but except for the times going to church. So I was not uncomfortable at all. At all, I had no problems speaking to a white professor or my classmates at all. You know, I have several good friends that I met and continued. So no. But I do have some colleagues ––and Arturo Madrid, okay, Arturo Madrid, I knew him from California and so forth. He then marries Antonia Castañeda [inaudible]. And to this day, I mean, it should bother me, that she would ask me this question. How, Ellen, how is it you can go into this group and then this group and white people and so forth? And I never understood the question because that had not been my life. So then I realized with her asking me the question, I realized that it was not the same for everybody. So a long story short","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=2383.0,2683.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is I don't know how it was for others. This is how I grew up and what I was used to. And that makes sense, what you're used to. \n\nMORA: Yeah, exactly. Were there a lot of people who looked like you slash were there a lot of fellow Latinx students when you attended Trinity? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Except for the ones that I mentioned, you know, the ones that I mentioned. And it seems like all of them were in art, because Terry Ybañez also went to Trinity –Is a big time Chicana artist. And then Sylvia Hernandez, who is, was a big Chicana. But she left, you know, I had forgotten it. I knew her at Trinity. She left after school. I don't know what she went someplace else. She's back in San Antonio area. But she was––became a big Chicana [artist] person. But those––I can't account for more than those. \n\nMORA: Thank you. Did you notice any changes in your feelings or understanding regarding Trinity and academia from the point of when you started education to when you left –slash- finished? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Yes. One, I think, was the whole idea of a bilingual, bicultural education. That was a brand-new thing. And UTSA was the first one that offered a master's degree in it. So as soon as I knew that, that's where I went. So yeah, that was a big thing. The other was learning about Gloria Anzaldúa, who to me was also my identity, life changer, who had nothing to do with Trinity. But my reading, the feminist literature, and she, I don't know if you all know who Gloria Anzalda is ––An-zal-dúa.  Write it down by syllable.  Anzaldua is a big feminist who is queer. Okay, now you know who she is. \n\nMORA: I love Gloria Anzaldúa.\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK:Okay. Well, she was a life changer for me. \n\nMORA: She was also life changer for me. (laughter) I read her book and was like, I want to know what she's doing. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Well, I did write in that last book that we have, Revolutionary Women. And I did write about my experience with her in there, how wise she was such a world changing thing for me. And for me, it started out by sharing. To me, she was just so, so like me. Yeah? \n\nCARETAKER: There's a, there's a, worker here. \n\n[Recording paused and continued.]\n\nMORA: So, we left off on the question, did you know any, did you notice any change in your feelings or your understanding regarding Trinity and academia? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Gloria. So I did not get to [inaudible] when I made the question. Okay. (speaking to caretaker) Yeah, she's going to talk to you. I know you already have been here at night. So just answer whatever and what to care. She did text me, but I didn't get the question. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Yeah. \n\n(Back to MORA) When I was talking about Dick Woods and the Mexican-American literature was all male. So I didn't get exposed to Gloria Anzaldúa until I went to UTSA and the Bicultural part of training. And that was like an eye-opening moment. And number one, I identified with her right away. And of course, I didn’t meet her because then I started doing a lot of stuff in the area. So with a lot of the literature of females, I, I, there were the first ones to start coming out. Sandra Cisneros, you know, [inaudible], all of them. And so, and I feel very privileged to have become their friends and so forth. And so, at UTSA, I had a symposium. And I would have symposiums all the time. And then I had Mexican-American literature, summer institutes, which you might have read about. And so all these people would come. And so I would have symposiums with them. And there were, because if there were eye openers for me, I knew there would be eye openers for not just Latinos, but for anybody else. And so, I identified with her [Gloria Anzaldúa] because she was, she was from South Texas, but you know, she was short and chubby like me. And she had a handicap and I have one, a handicap. So to me it was like, I identified with her. And then when I started reading her stuff, Cherríe Moraga and all of them. And so I have a lot of video tapes –– as an archivist (referring to Schnur) you should be fascinated by my archives. All of them, you know, so –– So to me, those were the holes in education was that for teachers in the United States, for wherever they're going to teach, they need to know about other cultural groups in the United States. It's not all white centric.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=2683.0,2983.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You have to think about philosophers. When you teach educational philosopher, I had never heard of philosophers that were Mexican until I learned about Sor Juana –– You know, Sor Juana de la Cruz? And she's the first philosopher of the Americas. And I would ask my colleagues, and they never heard of it. So they're all trained in a certain way. So to me, the training needs- needed to be affect –still needs to be affected by some of those elements. \n\nTrinity to me, the fact that they started working in bilingual classrooms at the school. The name starts with a ’S‘ I don't remember right now. Were kind of, you know, some fore runners, but I don't know if they picked up on it because UTSA was starting at the same time. UTSA started in '73 or '74. And the first graduate programs were in, and got my master's in a year. I got it in 1974. So, you know, that was one of the first years that they had. So, yeah, the whole, to me, you're still there. And so multicultural education is a must in San Antonio. It's bicultural education because San Antonio is not multicultural. It's bicultural. 300-year history of that; and our geographics and demographics tell you that. Yes, we have Asian Americans. Yes, we have, you know, six point seven African-American. And, etcetera. So, why do we have the largest MLAK [MLK] march in the whole United States, beyond Atlanta, Georgia, is inconceivable to me, when Cesar Chavez parade is minimal. So, I think you all are marching in the Cesar Chavez parade? \n\nMORA: Yeah, Trinity usually does.\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: That's new. Yeah. Yeah. \n\nMORA: Okay. What do you think are some of the differences between the experience of a Latinx student and a non-Latinx student at Trinity? Alternatively, what differences, if any, did you notice between you and your white peers? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: And the peers now, at Trinity? Well, number one, I don't consider them all Latinx. They don't consider themselves all Latinx. And I don't know how international students, I mean, you know, because I asked, you know, a big question, you know, quick return [on the response]. I feel it's really important to ask people how do they identify. I teach a whole course on identity. Or used to teach a whole course on identity. And what I find out is I can't assume what your (referring to Mora) identity is, or yours, (referring to Denney) or yours (referring to SCHNUR). It's a question of asking people. You know, now we ask what pronouns do you use? That was not around three years ago, okay? \n\nMORA: Yeah. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: So, I would consider in my time, and the ones that I know, that were not Latinx, that they identify as Latinos. They weren't all woke for the new word ––which I hate that word. And the other ones very rightly so considered themselves Venezuelan, Mexican, or whatever. So you can't impose that label on them. So, I now, when I did whatever things I've done at Trinity, I asked them, you know, where are you from? Like I asked you, that gives me an idea. If you had told me you were from Mexico, then I would have carried it out a little bit further. How do you want me to refer to you? As a Mexican? \n\nMORA: Would you consider Trinity an institution that supports its Latinx students then or now? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: I think in the recent years? Now. Now, and I guess when my husband was there. I wasn’t around, so I don't know. But what I do know is there's a huge group of them back then in the 50s, a huge group of them. So obviously they supported them because there was a Latino organization, things like that. And then the following years when, you know, I was there, it's nothing. And now it's set. So that's the reason I got active now as an alumni was because I had always said, told people, they've asked me. You know, so are you inviting all the Latino students? 'Well, we don't know who the Latino students are.’. Okay. To the alumni group.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=2983.0,3283.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But now I think it's very supportive. Absolutely. The only thing that I have a question about when Sydney was here working with alumni, did you know you Sydney? She just left. \n\nSCHNUR: I don't think I met Sydney. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Okay. She was working with the alumni situation. And so there's a lot of stuff going on for the alumni. So they asked me to join the alumni group, the board, the alumni board. And I'm not sure how that came about, but they called me and said, you know, 'you've been recommended.' And so, when we have a bunch of dinners, whatever was with them, became one. And so, then I noticed that the alumni group has tons of things going on –overall one. And all the scholarships that go out and all of the internships and all that. And I noticed there weren't very many names. So that's when I said, okay, I need to––Spanish surnames. And so then I thought, okay, I better find this out. And that's when I started finding out. And Michael Peña—was, ah, Michael Soto was there. And he started doing a lot of things. Apparently they got the McNair, the McNair scholarship thing. And there was funding that was coming in strictly for Latino students. And so the two things were mixing. The McNair or whatever other groups, whatever other money was coming into them. And the alumni group. So, I got the official formal answer because they have their own pot of money. And we have our own pot of money. Okay. So who belongs to the, this group that gets the McNair money? I don't know because there are some Latinist surnames or Spanish surnames.  Latino is not––but Spanish surnames and the big alumni group. So what constitutes who goes where I don't know? So that might be a question, y’all can––\n\nSCHNUR: Sydney, was it Sydney Lopez? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Yeah. \n\nSCHNUR: Okay. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: She's––she left about two months ago. \n\nSCHNUR: (laughter) I didn't realize that. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: But you didn't realize she had left. \n\nSCHNUR: No.\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: See what I mean? \n\nSCHNUR: Yeah. But yeah. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: That to me was a huge–– I found out. You know one of the last ones that I've been doing before a new president came in. She's fabulous by the way. I hope y'all think she's fabulous. [inaudible] In a time of no liberal arts school, she's going against the grain. Because I'm a big believer in liberal arts schools. So to me, y’all can answer that question for yourselves. Well, no, you're not, you're just students. Don't go there. That's my job. I'll do that. Yeah. You don't need to go ask whatever groups are there. \n\nMORA: Okay. Next question. We're going to be focusing on time after Trinity now. So post undergraduate. So what made you pursue higher education? Did attending Trinity play a role in your decision to get your doctorate and master's degree? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Well, number one, the master's degree because I realized I didn't have the training for that. And because it had just opened up. And again, I was able to work out my schedule. And I did my 36 [credit] hours in one year. And so you know, I went, you know.\n\nMORA: Yeah. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: And I never thought of a doctorate until–– I never assumed I was that smart because everybody in my family, I thought was smart. I thought my younger brother was brilliant. But I guess I am smart. And a couple of my professors, male professors, told me you need to pursue this. And then becoming a graduate assistant with Dr. Ernie Bernal, who is in, who is a Saint Mary's [University] person and goes to UTSA. And working with gifted children. And that's when I started with gifted children. And I will say my dissertation is still stands paramount because nobody else has studied it. That's the only way to get a paramount thing. Is that nobody else is studying the same thing. And that was because, because of Ernie Bernal realizing that bicultural-bilingual people have added cognitive abilities that monolingual people don't have. So that became my dissertation. And so I think that that set me on the––","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=3283.0,3583.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I loved the research aspect. And realized that statistics were very different from algebra. (laughter) I love statistics. I mean, I even taught statistics. And I tell them I was a failure in algebra. I would drop the course because I knew I wasn’t’ going to make it before it got to be enough. And then I'd just start taking it again. But that, I realized that statistics were part of the research arena and that I fell in love with, made sense to me. It was all quantitative, which when I did my dissertation, I fought to do a qualitative aspect that was just starting to become popular in the social sciences. And so my professors at––U.T. Austin, U.T. Austin––were all white men, did not—did not know what the hell was going on in the world [laughter]. And they were tenured to retire and would not accept the qualitative part until I asked one of them. And at that time, your dissertation committee was pretty much determined by whose courses you took. Asking a female to intervene for me, who's younger and knew about qualitative work, to intervene for me. And they allowed it. Though it became part of my appendix, not part of the dissertation that was quantitative. So again, those two things set me in knowing that there was a world besides numbers. And there was a world about life experiences and storytelling. That now, the word is called storytelling. And as Norma Cantú uses, testimonios, but those terms did not exist when I was studying. \n\nMORA: How would you compare your experience at Trinity to your experience at UTSA? At which institution did you get more positive experiences? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Remember I graduated in one year. So I continued my nerdy stuff. Though I was already a leader. ––I'm going to call it leader. –– I was part of groups civically because politics was interesting for me and the whole idea under representation. So remember, I was in –– became part of that circle in the 70s here in San Antonio. María Antonieta Pérez Salvo and Willie Velasquez, who again, you can give credit to Trinity. All of that was just happening. So I became very involved civically. And so I had that life and I had my academic life. But at UTSA there might have been a little bit more merger because people taking bicultural studies were a little bit more woke than others. And so those are those things. I continued then to do things here at my house, like I asked y'all, this is my conference table. Come to the house, doing things like that where I could merge my social life and my motherly work and my house thing together. Which was a great blend. I mean it was a great blend for me, for me. Not everybody likes to entertain, not everybody likes to cook. So, if for me, it was just the right thing to do. At U.T. Austin, again on recommendation by my professors at UTSA ––my two male professors that encouraged me to do it–– I went, and at that time, Title VII came about. And Title VII was giving out fellowships. So, they gave a fellowship to people going into bilingual-bicultural education. And that's where I was. So to me, having been a Methodist ––and I give credit to that–– is if you have a mass of people, you bring them together under common things. So, I will say I organized our U.T. Austin fellows into a group that became fellows. At U.T. Austin, our professors encouraged us to go to your doc students, right? To go to AERA, an American Educational Research Association, which is a professional organization. And I don't know, it's got 10,000 members worldwide. And Title VII money allowed us to go to that. And so, to me it was like organized here as a group. So, by the time we go to A[E]RA, we go as a group. And you divide up the thing. You go to this, you go to this,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=3583.0,3883.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and you go to this, and you go to this, and they'll come back and summarize. And at the same time, we started a group called the Bilingual Education Student Organization for the undergraduate students at U.T. Austin. And it was the BESO thing. And BESO came about because, the acronym, came about because of Jim Cummings, a Canadian educator, talked about bilingual brains, and he and I had collaborated. So basically, that's how that came about. And so being at U.T. Austin and grad schools at usually at night, so it is a lot easier, you know, drove back and forth. That was the hardest thing was driving back and forth between Austin. I could not do it now because the traffic is horrendous. But at that time, it was not so bad. I would leave U.T.S.A. and just drive it all and then come back. It was the idea of AERA being strictly this international organization that did not have Latino organization special interest group. There were special interest groups with the African American. And that's where I met Henry Louis Gates. Have y'all read about–– seen his program, Roots? And so now he's a famous Princetonian, Princeton professor who has a program called Roots. But he was the head of this African American special interest group. So myself and another colleague, we got together and asked him 'how could we start our own?’ So, we started out with two––two special interest groups, Hispanic research issues for those who were not in education. And then one called, Bilingual Education Special Interest Group. So those are the two first ones that got accepted by AERA to do that. And it was a grand old time in terms of–– but it was due to my knowing about you needed mass groups to come together that I learned here, at the Methodist church and learned in my community about coming together in support of each other. \n\nMORA: Do you think UTSA was more welcoming of Latinx students at Trinity? If yes, what actions did did— UTSA do to make you feel more comfortable and more welcoming? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: UTSA was a graduate school. So, there was no undergraduates. So that was a huge difference. Everybody was a professional. Everybody was working. So, there was a much different ––I was, I was unusual there because I was a full-time student as opposed to a part-time student. So that was my –– so I don't think that I could –– that's like an apple and oranges question. I could answer that for that. And at UT Austin, the way I was involved with undergraduates was strictly with ––that we started the, the BESO group and was a sponsor for that there. So it was, you know, internally driven by, by our department. And then when I came to work at UTSA, I brought the concept back to UTSA. \n\nMORA: During your time at UTSA, were you ever involved with Trinity in any way, shape or form? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK; No way, shape or form other than my former colleagues like Santos Martinez and, and, and the other Latino artists. \n\nMORA: Thank you. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Well, except for my friends that I had met at education. So, Satchie Dolan was a good friend until she died. She owned, for you all to know, she owned the Bombay Bicycle Club. \n\nSCHNUR \u0026 MORA: Oh! \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Did you all know it was started by Trinity student? \n\nMORA: No, I did not. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: You still go there? \n\nMORA: I've been before because I–– \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Still looks the same. And, and, and, and Satchie Dolan was from Del Rio, from a very fluent French and family. And, she was the youngest one ––I mean, here we've become friends. She was 16. And I was me. She was one of the youngest, underclassmen there. Now, how did I meet her because she was not in education? I frankly don't remember how we met at Trinity, but she became a very good friend and she goes to, to Laredo to get her Masters in International Business because of the ranching thing. And then, you know, she was one of those really bright people. You know, just a lot of, a lot of vision and gets bored with doing that and gets bored with doing that. And she decides to start the Bicycle [Bombay[ Club and then meets her husband and that. Unfortunately, she died of alcoholism,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=3883.0,4183.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but that's, but we were friends till the end. Yep. \n\nMORA: Did you have any relationships with Trinity faculty or staff after graduating during your time at UTSA? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Yes. That, whenever I would have hostings that I would host UTSA, Latino students I would always invite Margie Stovall and her husband, and Jean Chittendon would also come sometimes. Yep. \n\nMORA: Thank you. Would you recommend Trinity University for a Latinx student? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think now, yes. Absolutely. And even before, because I think, for me, again, remember I was Methodist. I was not Catholic. So, for me, the Catholic education was, was, though I did take religion at Trinity, it was not, you know, the fault of this. Yeah. I'm telling you all honestly, okay? So absolutely, I would tell them, and I would tell them there's financial help, you know, for that time title acts. I mean, title three, title, whatever it was, for undergraduates. And the Pell Grant, that's what I was trying to remember earlier. That doesn't exist anymore, does it? Pell Grants? \n\nMORA: It does exist. I'm a Pell Grant student, actually. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Are you going into education? You're not going into education. \n\nMORA: Well, I want to do academia. I really want to be a professor. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Okay. \n\nMORA: As well as like grad school, doctorate the whole, but all of it, that's like.\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Absolutely. \n\nMORA: That's like one of my biggest passions. During the time you spent UTSA, I found that you're a part of an organization that was the Bilingual Education Student Organization (BESO). So, can you speak on your experience working with this organization, from how you're got involved to the programming and organization schools? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Well, immediately, I, working on my dissertation, which you don't have to be on campus. I got hired as a Title VII, the Title VII project director at UTSA, which was Title VII, was for teacher training and bilingual bi-cultural education. So, it was kind of an offshoot of what I had at Austin, except on the doctoral level. And they also had it for the undergraduate level, which I started at BESO. So, for me to have been the, not the professors that wrote the grant, but the director of, or working, whatever my title was, with them, was a natural for me, because I was working with teacher trainer, as a teacher trainer. With undergraduate students. And so, it was logical to start the organization. And I will brag now, Dr. Belinda Flores, who's at UTSA and is a big wig now, vice chair, or whatever she is. And she was my undergrad student, became my grad student. And then she went to UT Austin and I was in her dissertation committee. \n\nMORA: Wow. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: I mean, is that like wild? And of course, she surpassed me, which is what you would expect. You know, the shoulders here, then the next over shoulder. And so, it's gone on like that with several of them. So, for me, there's several of those students that were undergraduate and they went all the way now to have graduate students. So, she became my first BESO president, not elected by me, but elected by the group. And it was a dynamite time. UTSA that time, was not ––it was largely a white school anyway, you know. Because the Latino students weren't that much. Had been in the graduate school, but undergraduate there weren't. So, as part of the Title VII, I started a lot of cultural activities. And so, UTSA has ––now things called the Sombrilla––Fiesta program. And so, for money raising, and we would raise money and I taught them how to make gorditas, which is what I learned how to make. And that's what they would sell. Their first project they wanted to sell was besos [kisses]. Because the acronym is BESOs, right? And I'm going like, oh no, you can't do that.' Your mothers are going to have a heart attack or what? Kissing strangers. And I really didn't notice that that's what they had submitted. That was the first thing they submitted. And it was approved. And so, we have the meeting. I'm like, you can't do that. Well, I didn't say you can't do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=4183.0,4483.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Let's re-look at this, you know. And when I brought the parents up, they said, 'oh, you're right.’ And so, how are you going to salvage this? Well, they were going to salvage it by selling Hershey kisses, which the people that paid the dollar for it were not happy. So, that was the end of that one. And then we decided we were doing something that's culturally appropriate, yeah. And then we started the gorditas and other things like that. And then other things was ––I call it Latino Heritage Month. It's known as Hispanic Heritage Month nationally.\n\nMORA: Yeah.\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK:  You know the history on that. Because it's from the Census Bureau. And I met the lady who termed––She used to work for civil services. She termed ––She was doing the Census. And she was Hispanic because she was from New Mexico. So, the ones from New Mexico that go all the way back to the Spanish. I mean, you understand that. But I said, you can't name it for everybody. So, anyway, I call it Latino Heritage Month. And I started that at UTSA. We’d always have this huge, huge thing opening and month-long programmings for the whole thing. And unfortunately, unfortunately, has gone way down at UTSA. And then, somebody had brought in MEChA, which is a social, the Humanity students and the social area. And MEChA students became–– I became—their faculty sponsor. So, I was sponsoring those two groups at UTSA. And I loved it. It was so dramatic. We held demonstrations. And when the dreamers came about, we did this huge dreamer thing at UTSA. And it was unusual because we didn't want to, to –– what would you call it? Expose who was a dreamer. But we knew who the dreamers were because they were here illegally. So, I just said, all of us are going to make these paper cutouts as big as you are. And so, they all laid down and we would draw them around and cut them out. We painted them. And then, they would post them all over UTSA, but it was not them. It was them in the poster. And so, we had a demonstration that goes, went for UTSA, say, to all the way to San Fernando Cathedral. Well, they voted on that. I said, okay, we'll do that. And then, the students are going, hey, Dr. Clark, how do you know how to march and what you're doing? I said, well, remember, I'm a child of the 60s––not a child. So, yes, I know how to do demonstrations. And first of all, you got to do it legally. And you call the police chief. And you said, we're going to do this. And the police chief told me, well, Ellen, we can't do that unless you have a permit, a parade permit. I said, well, we didn't know that. We didn't apply for it. But he said, don't worry, we'll send informally, we'll have people going up and down. Ten coming down, which I thought was a nice [inaudible]. \n\nMORA: My next question was actually about MEChA So, thank you for just answering the question preemptively. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: And MEChA won a lot of awards for being the outstanding student organization, wasn t it? \n\nMORA: Yes. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: And I'm only looking at him because he's asking the questions. (speaking to Denney) Okay?\n\nDENNEY: You are fine.\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: And I have just one eye so I can't go like this. \n\nMORA: Can you speak on your biggest encouragement for being such an engaged Trinity alum?\n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Engaging––\n\nMORA: Can you speak on your–– Can you speak on what encourages you to be such an engaged Trinity alum? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Okay. Because I felt that they were underrepresented. And when they would invite–– I mean, they would ask me to go to whatever they had. And I knew that they weren't involved. And I was busy and all that. And so, only now that my life started slowing down, then I realized I can do some–– Something good and at my age I can say whatever the hell I want whenever I want it, and people are going to listen. So when we have an alumni group and everybody's going around the year they graduate, and I say 74 –– I mean 73 until I was corrected. It was 74. And Rocío Guenther ––you all know Rocío Guenther. She just graduated ––Well, I guess she graduated. I don't know when she graduated from Trinity. A couple of them graduated. And she worked for Ron Nierenberg.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=4483.0,4783.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880/transcript/72048/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Guenther is her last name but she is Mexican from Mexico. She was sitting next to me. She goes––I didn't know her. And she said ‘74?! That means it was 50 years ago!’ I had never realized it was 50 years ago. I thought, whoa! (laughter)\n\nMORA: Yeah, I'd also have that reaction. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Okay, thank you for being polite and not doing it in public. \n\nMORA: And then finally for my last question, I want to bring... \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Phew, right? for y'all? [referring to Schnur and Denney]\n\nMORA: I want to bring focus back to our project’s goal: providing current Latinx students at Trinity with a sense of connection to the university, through the telling of our history. What advice would you give to your current Latinx students at Trinity? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: And it's an advice I gave to when they call me about Trinity. What can we do to it for alumni thing? I think that all students should be involved in the city they live in, in the community they live in. So not necessarily that they're going to be out in everything, but their education, they've been going to student teaching. So they go out to Hawthorne and some of all those schools. But that's a select group of students. But I think all of them should have access to all of the cultural aspects of San Antonio. I'm really involved in artistic, I'm an arts commissioner and all that. So I know all the stuff is going on in San Antonio, literary wise and artistically. Those kinds of things that should be involved in. Because if you go to Chicano art show, you're learning about other people's kind of art. If you go to a literary kind of like what Norma's doing and Arturo did of literary arts, it exposes the whole community, the whole Trinity community. And I don't know, are they open to all of those? I mean, when Norma and Arturo, or we tell Arturo, I don't tell Norma, do y'all invite the whole UTSA ––I mean the whole Trinity audience, a student body, do you know? Or y'all invited to everything that's done by–– well you all are. \n\nSCHNUR: I think the outreach and communications, getting words out to the entire population of Trinity is very difficult for some reason \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: It is. Okay, so then my assessment is right. \n\nSCHNUR: I think that they make attempts to advertise for events. But you have to reach people in so many different ways. It's hard. \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: But it would be easy to do, a university-wide announcement. \n\nSCHNUR: We have those, it’s just do people read them? \n\nMORA: Nope. \n\nSCHNUR: Do students open the email up? \n\nRIOJAS-CLARK: Well, of course that's going to happen, they're not going to do it. But if they're advised, and maybe somebody just interested in art, oh I didn't know about this, so I'm interested in literature, I didn't know about this. I would say that a university-wide one would be the best rather than just targeted ones, but that's my opinion. You know, something that goes out to everybody. It's got to be inclusive more than, yeah. That's my opinion. \n\nMORA: Dr. Riojas-Clark, thank you so much for your time conducting this interview. Our recording is stopping here.\n\n [END OF INTERVIEW]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98835/file/222880#t=4783.0,4976.92533"}]}]}]}