{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/8c9r20sg0r/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Interview with Shirley Rushing Poteet"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/173/original/Logo_CL_ColorReversed.png?1773939905","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eInterview with Shirley Rushing Poteet. Trinity University Women's Intercollegiate Athletics Oral History Project. UA-OH001-19-02. Coates Library Special Collections and Archives. Trinity University (San Antonio, Tex.).\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Trinity University Special Collections and Archives"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThe materials in this collection may be protected by copyright law (Title 17, U.S. Code). The materials are available for personal, educational, and scholarly use. It is the responsibility of the researcher to locate and obtain permission from the copyright owner or his or her heirs for any other use, such as reproduction and publication.\u003c/p\u003e","\u003cp\u003eThis interview is open for research. Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Trinity University Special Collections and Archives.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Participants"]},"value":{"en":["Shirley Rushing Poteet (Interviewee)","Betsy Gerhardt Pasley (Interviewer)","R. Douglas Brackenridge (Interviewer)","Sharp Copy Transcription (Transcriber)","Index - Trinity University History of Sport (SPMT 3314) class (Writer of accompanying material)","archives@trinity.edu (Metadata contact)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2020-07-15 (Created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["video"]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["OH001-19-02 (cms record id)","UA-OH001 (collection call number)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Trinity University Women's Athletics Oral History Project (is part of)"]}}],"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThe materials in this collection may be protected by copyright law (Title 17, U.S. Code). The materials are available for personal, educational, and scholarly use. It is the responsibility of the researcher to locate and obtain permission from the copyright owner or his or her heirs for any other use, such as reproduction and publication.\u003c/p\u003e","\u003cp\u003eThis interview is open for research. Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Trinity University Special Collections and Archives.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Trinity University Special Collections and Archives"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Trinity University Special Collections and Archives"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/173/original/Logo_CL_ColorReversed.png?1773939905","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/119/151/small/data?1625741256","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Interview with Shirley Rushing Poteet - Session 2 - Trinity University Women's Athletics Oral Hist"]},"duration":3930.0,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/119/151/small/data?1625741256","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I_n4G57qGM","type":"Video","format":"video/youtube","duration":3930.0,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Interview_with_Shirley_Rushing_Poteet-02.xml [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"PASLEY: Today is Wednesday, July 15th, 2020. This is an interview for the oral\nhistory project of Trinity University women's intercollegiate athletics. I am\nBetsy Gerhardt Pasley, a Trinity graduate of 1977 and former intercollegiate\nathlete. We also have Dr. Douglas Brackenridge, Professor Emeritus, Department\nof Religion, from 1962 to 2002. Today we're doing the second part of our\ninterview with Shirley Rushing Poteet, who was the Associate Professor of the\nDepartment of Physical Education between 1960 and 1995, and Department Chair\nfrom 1985 to 1995. So that's the official stuff. Shirley, where we left off--let\nme just kind of set an expectation, if you're okay with this. We left off I\nthink in 1975. You've given us a great chronological download of what was going\non in the tennis program specifically. What I'd like to do is kind of have you\nfinish that, in a fairly quick manner, maybe in 15 minutes or so or whatever we\nneed. Because I'd like to spend at least 45, if we can, on this hour-long\ninterview, to get into some of the other things. And some of these may be less\nhistoric and more just personal perspective. Is that okay with you?\n\nPOTEET: Well, I really thought we finished it.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: I thought you covered that whole era of the tennis and the\nstarting, the early days, and that if you wanted to move on to broaden this, I\nthink we could pick up with some of the ideas that Shirley has. I've got some,\nalso, that would be more general and more personal, but I think it would add a\nlot to our (INAUDIBLE).\n\nPOTEET: Well, let me recap where we were at the end. I was with the team through\n1974. And then, in 1975, they hired Marilyn Montgomery. At that point, I really\nhad nothing else to do with tennis. I went back to my regular teaching role and\nthe other things that I was doing. So I really don't have anything else to say\nbetween 1975 and 1980.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: Maybe I could ask one tennis question. What was your personal\nresponse to dropping Division I tennis? That came later. Both what did you think\nabout it at the time, and then in terms of what its ultimate effect was, what\nwas your response to that?\n\nPOTEET: At the time it was dropped, we had some very excellent tennis players,\nand so I was disappointed for them, and I was sympathetic with their tennis\ncareers. Because they were really interrupted. I did understand the philosophy\nbehind it, and I am in agreement with the transfer to Division III. As hard as\nit was for the tennis players and the coach at that time, I thought ultimately\nthis is what would happen, and it did. And the fact that they have been able to\ncompete with peer institutions, at a very high level, I think has kind of\nguaranteed that that has been the right decision to make.\n\nPASLEY: Looking back, it sounds like it was a good decision. They're still very competitive?\n\nPOTEET: Yes, yes.\n\nPASLEY: But it sounds like the casualties were those tennis players who really\nwanted the Division I experience.\n\nPOTEET: Exactly. And the students coming in now, I'm not sure they're ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=0.0,300.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\neven aware that we played at Division I, unless someone has specifically told\nthem a little bit about the history.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: We still do have some lingering bitterness about this, don't we?\nWhen we have the Trinity reunions. That still seems to come up with the\ngeneration of the players from that early era. But it's not an issue now, not today.\n\nPOTEET: No, but the alumni remember when we, men and women, were playing\ncompetitively at Division I, and how exciting it was. And of course they can't\nquite understand it now.\n\nPASLEY: Have you had the opportunity to talk to some of your previous players,\njust about this?\n\nPOTEET: Not really. They're all gone. I talked to them for a few minutes back at\nthe tennis reunions, but we really don't get into this.\n\nPASLEY: Let me ask this question, because it was interesting--I was talking to\nJustin Parker, and obviously this is his perspective, but he feels like--of\ncourse a lot was happening in 1991, 1992, in terms of facilities and SCAC and\nthe women being able to play. It seems like that was a pretty significant year.\nBut Justin's feeling is that having tennis move--to not have the cognitive\nissues, to not have two different kinds of division competing teams, he felt\nlike it was kind of the spark of Division III really taking off and being\ncompetitive. That he thought the tennis thing, even though it was tough at the\ntime, was kind of the real catalyst to get everything moving forward.\n\nPOTEET: I don't know. I know that some of the athletes we've interviewed, we've\nasked them about that. \"Was this a problem? That some of the girls had\nscholarships, and you didn't?\" And the athletes didn't really seem to pay much\nattention to that. They were more interested in what they were doing. And most\nof them were friends with the tennis players. And so it really didn't seem to\nbother them that much.\n\nPASLEY: So if somebody said to you, \"Why did we drop Division I?\" what would\nyour answer be?\n\nPOTEET: That it was Dr. Calgaard's decision.\n\nPASLEY: Well, there you go! (laughs)\n\nPOTEET: (laughs) He wanted to get all of the teams into a conference, where they\nwere competing with peer institutions, and where they were competing on the same\nlevel. He really wasn't here during the tennis heyday. He didn't come in until\nafter the men's team was fading a bit, and the women were not number one or\nnumber two anymore. And so they didn't get the publicity that they got\npreviously. I don't know what he would have thought if he had been here when we\nwere playing at the number one and two positions, but he looked at it as this is\nwhat was happening historically, but it needed to change. And so, it changed.\n\nPASLEY: Obviously there was some money--there's some budget that goes into\nscholarships. Do you think that was a big driver of it, or it was really the\nbroader context?\n\nPOTEET: Oh, I think it was the broader attitude. Because the amount of money\nthat goes into eight scholarships is minimal, when you're looking at a total\nathletic program.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: One of the other things that he used to bring up with this issue\nwas that so many of these--particularly you're talking about men's tennis, but\neven some with the women's tennis--they weren't staying for four years. They\nwere leaving. And they were coming in, and many of them, particularly ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=300.0,600.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nwith the men, weren't the academic quality that we would like to have had with\nour athletes. And then there was the financial aspect. But I think what your\nanalysis--I think that's correct, and that he saw this--it was kind of an\nanomaly of trying to put a lot of resources into that one sport, and we weren't\ngetting the publicity and that, that we used to get. And then it didn't fit in\nwith his vision of an academic institution. So those things converging made it\nseem like a wise decision. And as you say, I think the fact that the teams\nremain competitive at the Division III level, not only in tennis but in these\nother sports, we did gain something from that--\n\nPOTEET: Oh, absolutely.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: --that has helped the institution and gave athletics a much\npositive impact. I think it's got a much positive atmosphere about it now than\nwhat it had when you and I were back there.\n\nPOTEET: Yeah. And the women's, we really had I think only one player who came in\nand participated in the one-and-done, as they call it. And she came in, as a\nfreshman, and won the national championship. And so if she had not won the\nnational championship, she might have stayed on. But what is there, after that?\nThe only way you can go is down. And she was unhappy with some other things\nalso. As far as the ones I know, we never did have anyone who had grade\nproblems. They had some challenges, and they always--I always had a trunkload of\nbooks, on trips. They carried their books with them and studied. But we didn't\nhave any problems with any of them with grades, or leaving early. So it was\nprimarily the men, I think, who were--if they could get a pro contract, that he\nwas thinking of.\n\nPASLEY: Anything else on that, Doug?\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: No, I think that covers it.\n\nPASLEY: Of course, you were there when this change happened. Do you recall what\nthe temperature was on campus? I guess there were protests? What were your\nmemories of those days?\n\nPOTEET: Not much, Betsy. In fact, I learned more about it during this project\nthan I knew when we started. I didn't even know we had people lying down on the\ncourts and things like that. I really was not that aware of all of the protests\nthat were going on, until we started this project. And of course Doug dug all of\nthis out in the Trinitonian and the local papers, also. But I was really unaware\nof that. Were you here then?\n\nPASLEY: I was not. No, I was gone by then. I left in 1977. We were back in town,\nand I kind of remember just vaguely seeing some coverage about it, like in the\nlocal paper. Because that was probably one of the few things that the paper\nwould cover of Trinity sports, at the time.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: We had a double blow with our relationship with the local press.\nThat's when we dropped Division I football. Remember? That was the big--they\nwrote us off. They were very unhappy with us. And then with tennis, that was one\nof their last big things they had in San Antonio. I mean, they had the Spurs,\nbut at the college level, we were the only thing that really still would capture\nsome attention. So I think that lingered on. I don't follow it that much now,\nbut I notice even now, we don't seem to get the same kind of coverage as the\nother schools.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=600.0,900.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\n\nPOTEET: No, we don't.\n\nPASLEY: Well, really, nobody does. They've had to cut back--I actually worked\nfor the Light in 1977; I was a sports writer there. And we were able to cover\nall sorts of things, from local colleges, and send people to games, or at least\ntake the scores over the phone. And they've cut their staff back so much that\nthey can barely cover high school football, which is probably the biggest draw\nfor subscribers. Even UTSA Division I, you're just not going to get much\ncoverage, just because of advertising revenues and other things. But that was\nprobably the beginning of the end of Trinity coverage. (laughs).\n\nPOTEET: Right.\n\nPASLEY: Another thing, Shirley, I wanted to ask you about, was--in a lot of our\ninterviews, your name comes up quite a bit, which isn't a surprise. And in many\nways, it's that \"Shirley found me this job\" or \"She called me and said, 'Why\ndon't you interview for this job?'\" What do you recall about the support you've\ngiven to athletes that you've worked with, after they've left Trinity?\n\nPOTEET: I guess the first thing I think of was when I told Peggy Kokernot about\nTitle IX. She was just out running all the time. And after Title IX was passed,\nI told her about this, and then that's when she started investigating the track\nwith the men, and getting some help, with a coach, and a little travel, and not\nmuch of a budget, but--and I really didn't realize that until she told me. When\nthis project was first starting, and she was emailing me, she at one time\nthanked me for telling her about that, and said that was the impetus for her\nstarting the women's tennis team. As for other things, there was another\ncompetition back in the 1980s that I'm not sure anybody remembers, or maybe not\nmany people know about. But after I left tennis, I had a little more time for\ndance, which was the major thing that I taught here. And I took a team of\nballroom dancers to England to compete with--well, the competition was at\nCambridge. We competed with Cambridge and Oxford and Cardiff and Harvard and\nYale and Brown, and there were a couple of students from UT. And that was\nprobably the last foray into competition that I had. And we of course didn't\nscore very well, because we weren't that good, but it was a real learning\nexperience for these eight students.\n\nPASLEY: You're right; I had not heard of that. Had you, Doug? (laughs)\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, I have. I wrote--I don't know how that got into\nmy narrative, but I did have that in terms of Shirley's biography. But I had a\nquestion about the dance, so maybe I can ask it now, is that my memory with some\nof those interviews, I remember athletes saying that your class was more\nstrenuous than what they had in some of their practices. That this was\nreally--what do you call it?--aerobic. It was really something that was\nchallenging, and so forth. And my other thought was that, having taken your\nclass and more or less failed--\n\nPOTEET: No, no, Doug!\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: She didn't fail me, but I mean--\n\nPOTEET: You keep saying that!\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: But knocking one of the dancers' eyeglasses off, that was a--and\npicking up the glass off the floor, that was kind of an embarrassing situation.\nBut I thought that in terms of women's intercollegiate athletics, that brought\nmany, many students to the Bell Center that never would have entered the doors\nof the place. That ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=900.0,1200.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"was something that I think--it was kind of a\nbyproduct of the intercollegiate athletics, but it was something that nurtured\nthat atmosphere of what we wanted with our students, and with our athletes. And\nso I do think that that dance class, even though it wasn't intercollegiate\nathletics, I think it fit in there and was a plus to the overall program.\n\nPOTEET: The American--let's see, USABDA--United States American Ballroom Dance\nAssociation--tried, at one time, calling it \"dance sport.\" And the reason they\nwere doing this was they were trying to get it into the Olympics. And it never\nmade it into the Olympics. And that was really the end of the competition. Now,\nwe did demonstrations with the students. But that was the end of the competition\non the ballroom dance.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: But I think it also, for our students--I may be belaboring this\npoint, but I think it also, for a lot of people that took that class, they had\nnever had such strenuous physical activity. And I wish there was some way of\ntracking what happened to these people, that I'm sure in later life, they were\nmuch more involved in dancing and activities, and physical movement. That was\nwhat the dancing was all about. And that it also, to me, as a faculty member, it\nemphasized something that was happening elsewhere in your department, was that\nthere was teaching going on. It wasn't just roll the ball out and walk away; it\nwas teaching. And that as I recall, there was some--I can't remember the details\nnow--about wanting credit for some of these courses. And I think the argument\nwas that so many of the faculty had bad experience both with intramurals and\nwith intercollegiate in their own careers. Because back then, if you didn't\nreally play, and you weren't really good, nobody wanted anything to do with you.\nAnd I think that your class was just one example of how--I would watch the\ntennis--they were out there teaching them, how to play tennis. And they were\nteaching them how to swim. And they were teaching them. So it did fit in with\nthis whole story, and it fits in very much with your biography, and it's\nsomething I really would like to emphasize.\n\nPOTEET: Which always surprised me, because this is what we were trained to do,\nand this is what we did. And people were sometimes surprised--I can remember one\ntime, Genie Calgaard being so impressed when her--I guess it was her son--went\nto the tennis camp that Bobby McKinley had. And she was talking to me later, and\nshe said, \"You know, he told him everything that he was doing wrong, and then he\nleft there with a sheet of paper with what he was doing wrong, and what he\nneeded to do to correct this.\" And Genie was a little surprised at that. And I\nsaid, \"Genie, what do you think we all do down there all the time? (laughs) This\nis what physical education is, and this is what we do.\" I think there are plenty\nof people who have had not good experiences, and so I do understand where the\nattitude comes. Oh, now, I also must follow up on one thing Doug told you a few\nminutes ago, when he was in my class, and he knocked the--he was doing a turn,\nand ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=1200.0,1500.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a swing, and he knocked the girl's glasses off, and they fell on\nthe floor and broke. But, he didn't tell you what happened the next day. The\nnext day at class, Gene Norris and Jim Potter showed up with a football helmet,\nwhich was to be worn by anybody who danced with Doug.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: No, I don't even remember that!\n\nPOTEET: You don't remember that? Oh, I remember that.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: That sounds like them.\n\nPOTEET: They got on the microphone and announced, and held up the helmet and\nsaid, \"If you're dancing with Doug, pick this up first.\"\n\nPASLEY: Poor Doug. He's just getting the--\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: I hope that doesn't get into the Trinity history, but it probably will.\n\nPOTEET: (laughs)\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: When I told my insurance agent--somebody said that I was probably\ncovered with insurance, so I started explaining to my agent what happened, and\nhe just stopped me in mid--or he says, \"Doug, don't tell me any more. Just send\nme the bill.\" He didn't want to hear any more. All right, we can move on.\n\nPASLEY: I don't think I took a dance class with you, and now I regret it. I wish\nDave had. But in those classes, do you remember athletes coming into those classes?\n\nPOTEET: Oh, yeah.\n\nPASLEY: Give me some examples.\n\nPOTEET: Oh, yes. Okay. The backfield were the best.\n\nPASLEY: Say that again?\n\nPOTEET: The backfield athletes were the best.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: The football players, the backfield.\n\nPOTEET: The quarterbacks, running backs. They had more agility, and they learned\nfaster. The linemen kind of fell forward onto their feet. I did run across one\npicture--I'm cleaning out my files, while we're at home--but I ran across a\npicture a couple weeks ago of the first year I was here, when dance classes were\non the third floor of the science building. And it was a picture of a modern\ndance class, and there were two football players right in the front lens (SP).\nAnd they had taken the class because somebody told them that it would help your\nagility. But the athletes also, in ballroom dance and Country Western dance,\nthey would have a better lead, because they were strong, they were in charge.\nAnd almost across the board, they would have a better lead.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: One last note on Shirley's dance class--I would never have met\nDiane Saphire if I had not had that class. And of course I was not a dancer at\nall, and I was really pretty good at all the basic steps in Country Western\ndancing. I don't know if it was ballroom, but if I hadn't had your class, we\nwould never have come together. But that's another story.\n\nPOTEET: That's the biggest plus that you can tell me.\n\nPASLEY: That's pretty good.\n\nPOTEET: That's the biggest plus that you can tell me about that class.\n\nPASLEY: I'm still trying to figure out what Diane sees in this guy, but anyway.\nI'm just kidding. So you mentioned aerobics, too. And aerobics didn't become a\nthing or a fad--or the term--until, what, the 1970s or 1980s?\n\nPOTEET: Late 1960s, yes. And I did teach aerobic dance, until I became\ndepartment chair, and had to give up something. Then that was the one that I\ngave up. But we had aerobic dance, five days a week--Monday/Wednesday/Friday or Tuesday/Thursday.\n\nPASLEY: You mentioned the things that you're learning in this project, like the\nprotests when Division I tennis was demoted and all that. What else have you\nlearned as we've been working on this project? Are there things that have\nreinforced how you felt women's sports has advanced? Or are there things that\nsurprised you?\n\nPOTEET: Not many things that surprised me. Things that reinforced me. And then\nof course after 1975, I knew very little about it, and what was going on in\ntennis. And of course Doug had a lot of information on that, all the way up to\n2000. I guess one ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=1500.0,1800.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of the things that has impressed me the most are\nthe students, how well they have done in various professions, and how articulate\nthey are in the interviews. And I've found this all the way through my career at\nTrinity. When you look back at the alumni magazines, and you read articles, many\nof which Doug has interviewed people, I'm always so pleasantly surprised at the\ncareers of these people and what they have contributed.\n\nPASLEY: You were part of that early effort for women's sports to be taken\nseriously. As we've been walking through this project, have you thought or had\nepiphanies about, \"That must have been a catalyst\"? I'm thinking like a Libby\nJohnson being--was she the right person in the job at the time? Can you see\nwhere maybe some of those turning points or inflection points may have happened,\nlooking back?\n\nPOTEET: Oh, sure. First of all, the biggest turning point for women's athletics\nacross the board was Title IX. So that is responsible for having these--how many\ndifferent teams do we have now? Eight? Twelve? Whatever. That never, ever would\nhave been possible without Title IX, which came about in 1972, and then started\nthe implementation in 1973. And then along with Title IX came Libby Johnson. You\nmay recall from our interview a couple weeks ago, we talked about basketball and\nvolleyball, and how Jim Potter put it together and struggled keeping it going\nfrom 1965 through 1972. And during that time, one of the schools that we played\nmany, many times was Saint Mary's, the reason being they had a team, and the\nsecond reason being, they were local, and no one had to pay to travel anywhere.\nAnd so we saw what she had done at Saint Mary's, which was amazing. And so as\nsoon as we were able to add another faculty member, there was no question as to\nwho we wanted. And so I guess we wrote the job description that would fit her\nvery well, and so there was never any question of--I'm not even sure that we had\nto bring in three different interviewees at that time. I think you could\nprobably just select somebody and offer them the job, which is what we did. And\nthen she's the second turning point for women's athletics at Trinity, because\nshe is the one that put it on the mount (SP). When you look at the same person\ncoaching volleyball, basketball, and softball, and doing it at the same time,\nand some of these overlapping, it almost seems inhuman at this point. But this\nwas something that Libby did, and she did it well. Plus the fact that she was\none of the best teachers I've ever seen. And so in addition to her coaching\nduties, she always taught majors courses. We had physical education majors then.\nAnd so she taught them in the methods of teaching these sports. And so she would\nhave people other than her athletes in classes, and when they got out of that\nclass, they had some knowledge about teaching and coaching. And then in\naddition, I can remember she also taught tennis. She taught some activity\nclasses. So her workload was too much for anybody to try to do. And eventually,\nit ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=1800.0,2100.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"just kind of wore her down, toward the end. But she was the second\nturning point. I guess the third one was when Ron Calgaard decided the way that\nathletics would go, and he put us into Division III all the time, and he\nemployed an athletic director who was an athletic director for both men and\nwomen. It was not one of the coaches who was pulled into coaching this sport and\nbeing athletic director on the side. So that was what has completed the program\nas we know it today.\n\nPASLEY: Very good. You basically have written our introduction, I think. (laughs)\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: When we were interviewing the students and asking them about did\nthey feel left out or not treated well--and that even though there were a lot of\ninequities, it didn't seem to bother them. They were enjoying playing. I'm\nwondering how you felt, in your career. That you came in at a time when you had\nto fight for recognition just to be in an athletic department. And at the time,\nor even looking back, were there regrets, where you'd say, \"Well, I wish things\nhad been different\" or \"I felt like I was shortchanged in my own career\"? Would\nyou want to comment on that?\n\nPOTEET: Yes, I'll comment on that. I guess I feel very much like our athletes\nfelt. This is what was happening at that time. And as far as starting the\nathletics, this was happening all over the country, all over Texas, especially.\nBut this was happening all over the country. You may recall, Doug, when you were\ndoing history, any time women's athletics was mentioned, it was the women of the\nphysical education department who were in charge of it. I don't think I ever saw\nit anywhere else. This is what was happening all over the United States, and the\nwomen were struggling for money, for recognition. And this is how athletics\nstarted all over the country. So I didn't necessarily think anything about it\nthen. In retrospect, most of the teams we were playing, once the faculty members\nstarted coaching, they were given release time, or they were given a stipend for\ncoaching. And I was never given that. I never asked for it. I don't know whether\nI would have been given it or not, if I had asked for it. But it just never\noccurred to me to ask for that. So when the university decided that the women\nfaculty would do this, they simply--as one of my students said, \"I was\nvoluntold.\" You were voluntold. You were volunteered by someone else that you\nwould do this, and so you did it. And I don't really have any regrets about it.\nThe students appreciated it. They've told me they appreciated it. And  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=2100.0,2400.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nthat's what we're here for. We were here to serve the students. That was just a\ndifferent way of serving them.\n\nPASLEY: When you look back, the obvious people that you've interacted with over\nthese 40-something years or 50 years, specific to women's athletics--obviously\nLibby Johnson sticks out. You might argue Julie Jenkins or Bob King, who I know\nyou didn't interact as much with. Who are some of the other players that you\nthink really made a difference, men or women, in the progress of women's athletics?\n\nPOTEET: Julie, of course--Julie Jenkins--has been a real find. Janet Bristor,\nwho was employed here as our trainer, made a real impression on the athletes.\nBefore Janet arrived, we had a male trainer in the men's dressing room, and in\norder for anyone to be treated, then we would have to knock on the door and\nclear the dressing room and clear a path to the office. So Janet's arrival was\nwith our really equipping a training room for the first time. It struggled for\n50 years. So she had a big influence on it. Then the other coaches became--well,\nRookie--Lynn Luna, who was here as a player, and when Libby left and we needed\nsomebody immediately, then Lynn Luna was the first person I thought of. And when\nI called her and asked her about this, she was absolutely stunned that anybody\nthought she could fill the shoes of Libby Johnson. And so I assured her she\ndidn't have to fill these shoes, but we needed somebody right then. And so she\nwas I think very--she was pregnant at the time, but she agreed to come in, and\nsee us through until we could find someone, until we could do a search committee\nand actually do it the way we were supposed to do it. I didn't know many of the\ntrack coaches, and the basketball coaches of the 1980s and 1990s I didn't know\nvery well, so I really can't comment on them.\n\nPASLEY: Any other allies or any other administration type people who may have\nbeen key players, you think? I know we talked about allies with tennis and there\nweren't many there.\n\nPOTEET: No, we had some faculty who came to games and supported the teams that\nway. Jerry Smetzer was a big fan and also coached, some. So we had a few men\nfaculty members who filled in, in spots where we really needed somebody and\nneeded somebody fast.\n\nPASLEY: You just reminded me of a question. In most of our interviews, we've\nasked the students themselves about did they struggle balancing athletics with\nacademics. And one of my favorite stories when I was rereading these, Shirley,\nwas Sue Bachman saying she wouldn't have made it past her freshman year had you\nnot raised a red flag and got Libby to step up and almost adopt Sue her first\nsemester, so that she could focus on studies. Do you remember those early days,\nwhen you were involved, when you were in the PE ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=2400.0,2700.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"department? Obviously\nyou had a lot of PE majors under your wing as well. Do you remember what those\ndays were like in terms of academics, and professors being supportive of these\ntravel schedules and things like that, or labs?\n\nPOTEET: Yes. In my opinion, academics were tougher in the 1960s than they were\nin the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, because of the curriculum that was required.\nPeople were required to take courses. I know our majors struggled, because the\nfirst thing they had to take was biology, and they had to have 14 hours of\nbiology to get a physical education major. And so this was a struggle for many\nof them. Our students struggled, it seems to me, in the 1960s, more than they\ndid any other decade. I had advisees every year, from 1960 on. And I had my\nfirst four-point advisee in 1968, and that was Emilie Foster. And after that,\nthen you started seeing a lot of 4.0 students. But until 1968, I didn't see one.\nSo it seemed to be harder to make the grades back in the 1960s. Most of the\nfaculty supported students who traveled. There was one professor I can recall,\nand I won't name him, who absolutely would not give them a break at all. He said\nto a girl who was nationally ranked and who was invited to a tournament that \"If\nI call on you and you're not here, you'll get a zero.\" So she had to take a\nchance on not participating in this national tournament where she was invited,\nand getting a zero, or maybe he wouldn't call on her that day. So there were\nsome who wouldn't give them a break, but most of the faculty was very good about\nletting them make up a test or letting them take it early, if they missed work.\n\nPASLEY: It was interesting; one of the things I'm trying to do to get something\nto Doug as a draft is I'm picking up all the volleyball writeup that we've had\nfor 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. And Libby Johnson is taking a team and--I don't\nhave it in front of me--like maybe in 1974 or 1975, and I think they qualified\nto move on to the playoffs, but four of the players couldn't travel because of\ntheir classes.\n\nPOTEET: I can remember some of Libby's players having problems with that. Of\ncourse she was traveling with more people than I was. With four, you don't have\nas many problems as you do with 12.\n\nPASLEY: (laughs) That's a really good point.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: I came in the 1960s, and another thing the athletes had to deal\nwith--there was a whole new generation of young faculty with PhDs, and they were\nreally tough graders. Back then, in the 1960s, a C was a decent grade. You\ndidn't get many As or Bs, and you gave Ds and Fs. So there was definitely a\nchange in the grading, that I think the athletes--and I think people in drama,\nwhere they had to miss a lot of things, too--they suffered. But it was just\nsimply true that those athletes, just in terms of grades alone, they had a\n(laughs) tougher time. There weren't many easy Bs or soft ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=2700.0,3000.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"As. They\nwere few and far between. So it was difficult for the athletes. And I know there\nwere some of the younger professors who kind of looked down their nose at\nathletes, and they really didn't have much respect for them. And that was\nbecause they had had bad experiences at college. That's unfortunate. There's\nalways some of that, even today, but not like it was back then.\n\nPOTEET: In addition to that, Doug, there were students who were not athletes who\nhad problems with (INAUDIBLE).\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: Right, it wasn't just the athletes.\n\nPOTEET: (INAUDIBLE)\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: No, everybody--if you had a class of 30, you'd have 15 or 20 Cs,\nand five or ten Ds or Fs, and one or two As, and a couple of Bs, and that was\nit. That's what the grading was.\n\nPASLEY: Boy, I'm glad I came in 1973 and not in the sixties.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: (laughs)\n\nPOTEET: (laughs) It had tamed a bit when you got there, Betsy.\n\nPASLEY: Dave and I still joke that we're not sure we could get into Trinity\nthese days.\n\nPOTEET: I've heard a lot of people say that.\n\nPASLEY: I know we may not have a hard stop in three minutes, but we're coming up\non our hour, Shirley. Doug, is there anything else you wanted to ask while we\nhave her? I mean, we know where she lives.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: I just have two more quick questions. One was, just even beyond\nthe intercollegiate athletics, and we don't want to spend much time on it, but\nhow were you treated as a female faculty member, just in general? And then the\nlast question would be, is there any decision you made you wish you could have\ndone it differently if possible? That's a tough one. But just what about being a\nwoman faculty member, apart from you being in athletics?\n\nPOTEET: Well, first of all, I mentioned before that the first three years, I was\nin Northrup Hall. And so I was able to meet the entire faculty at that point,\nwhich I wouldn't have been if I had been isolated down in the Sams Center. There\nwere I think nine female faculty members when I came. And there was a group that\nhad been here, been on the faculty for some time. In fact, I think one of them\ncame from Waxahachie. And then there was a younger group that came in. I was\ntreated well by all of the women faculty. I was treated well by all of the\nfaculty. Of the younger people who came in, there was Elizabeth Ridenhower in\nart. There was Rosalind Phillips in music, I in physical education. And then the\nperson with no age at all was Frances Swinny in speech and drama. And the four\nof us became fast friends in the early 1960s. We would have lunch together at\nthe beginning of every semester. And this friendship has gone on for the past\n50, 60 years. We lost one of our foursome. We lost Rosalind Phillips. And she\nwas replaced by Mary Jane Judd, our chaplain's wife, was teaching at Saint\nMary's Hall, and she retired about that time. And so the four of us still have\nlunch together at least twice a year. We do it now on birthdays. But the lasting\nfriendships have been wonderful. The other women faculty members were all gone\nvery soon, because most of them were at about retirement age when we were there.\nSo it was absolutely nothing like it is now, where you probably see close to a\n50/50 split. But we were a real minority at that time. Your ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=3000.0,3300.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"last\nquestion--what would I do differently?\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: Right, if there was a decision that you regretted making, or wish\nyou had been able to do something different. Does anything stand out?\n\nPOTEET: Not really. It really was a total joy from the beginning to the end. And\nthe only reason that I retired early was I wanted to do other things in my life,\nand I wanted to do other things while I still could. And then my last semester\nthere, I got this wonderful phone call from an agent who said, \"Would you like\nto teach (INAUDIBLE) dance on a cruise ship?\" And so that started our cruise\ncareers. Also, two weeks after my retirement was when I married John Poteet. My\nhusband had died in 1986. I was single for ten years. And so two weeks after I\nretired, then I married him. And so we started our career of traveling and\ncruising, and that has been a very, very fulfilling 'nother career, after\nleaving Trinity. So I really have no regrets. I can't think of anything that I\nwould do differently from the way it was done.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: I'd like to say just one more thing, is that this project that we\ngot into would never have gotten off the ground had Shirley not pushed. It would\nhave just died. And when Peggy had approached you, and she couldn't get\nanywhere, just seemed like, well, you can't fight City Hall. It was like Shirley\nwas not going to let it go. And that's when I got into it, was because of\nShirley and because she was willing to contribute her time and her knowledge and\nher expertise, that this thing really got going. So I think that needs to be\nremembered in this history--that that's the role I see you playing, and that I\nwould (laughs) never have gotten involved in it. I know I wouldn't, had you not\ncalled me and really wanted me to help. And once I got in it, and once I talked\nto Peggy and so forth, yeah, it made a difference. But that was another part of\nthe story that I think we are indebted to you. And I appreciate it.\n\nPOTEET: And I might add, once I tapped Doug for this, I was simply asking him to\ntry to help us get information out of the Athletic Department. And that's the\nway this whole project started. And so, I took the ball and gave it to him, and\nboy, did he run.\n\nPASLEY: He did. (laughs) And he's still running! He's a good runner.\n\nPOTEET: (laughs) So I had no idea when this started that it would turn out to be\nsomething of this magnitude. And can't say how much I appreciate the work you\ntwo have done on it, and are still doing.\n\nPASLEY: One of the things I'm having fun is, rereading all the work that Doug\nhas done and rereading all the interviews we've done, is this kind of a thread\nthat connects the people through these stories. And obviously you were there for\n15 years before you met Peggy, but here it is, 45 years later, and you and Peggy\nreconnected, or I guess a little over 40 years later, because of that first\nconversation you had with her in 1975. How cool is that? Do you remember, did\nshe call you, or email you, or what was that first--?\n\nPOTEET: She emailed me for a year, at least, when we were trying to ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=3300.0,3600.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nget information out of the Athletic Department. And we just kept hitting a brick\nwall. And so I decided that there's got to be another route to get this. So\nthat's when I remembered--I knew that Doug had published the history of Trinity,\nand I knew that he knew some of the people in the Athletic Department, and\nthought maybe he could make a breakthrough on that. But Peggy--our emails went\nback and forth for at least a year, before I ever tapped Doug for this. And she\nwas an outstanding student when she was at Trinity, and had quite a career with\nher track and Olympic torch and cover of Time magazine. So it wasn't just\nsomebody passing through. She had left her mark in San Antonio before this\nproject ever started.\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: I'm always coming up with last comments, okay? The last comment\n(laughs) I come up with is, I remember at college, they had this up on the\nbulletin board, and it stuck with me the rest of my life. It had, \"Do it, do it\nright, do it right away.\" And I thought, \"That's Shirley. That's Shirley.\" You\nknow, \"Do it, do it right, and do it right away.\" And with Betsy, it's the same\nway. She's the same way. And I think that not people who say, \"Oh, I'll do that\"\nand then you've got to call them four times. You've got to get after them. No.\nIf they said they'd do it, they do it, and they did it, and they would do more\nthan what you asked them to do. But I think that has been--that's what has made\nthis a happy experience for me, is that to my knowledge, we haven't really had\nany friction, anybody that has really been unhappy about what the others were\ndoing and hasn't been supportive of each other. So all in all, of all the things\nI've worked on, I think this has been the most enjoyable project that I've ever\nworked on. And I'm looking forward to the fact that I'm not going to have to be\nthe one that comes down and puts it all together, but I can be there to help.\nAnd however this turns out and whenever it does come to completion, I just feel\nlike it's going to be something good, it's going to be something good for the\nuniversity. It's going to be something good for the women that we have talked\nto. And that it's going to just elevate a bit of history that in most\ninstitutions, it has never been really told. So I think ours is going to be a\ngood one, and that we continue, and we have the archives doing things and that,\nit will be really great.\n\nPASLEY: Anything to add, Shirley, before we have Abra do the voice?\n\nPOTEET: No, I don't think so. I guess my one last statement would be that my\ncareer at Trinity has just been a total joy, from beginning to end. I guess I\nsaid that before when Doug said, \"Do you have any regrets?\" And if I don't,\nthen--it really has been a pleasure.\n\nPASLEY: Cool. Obviously, we'll keep talking, but we can go ahead and stop.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=3600.0,3900.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/transcript/30554/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":null,"format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=3900.0,4200.0"}]},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Interview_with_Shirley_Rushing_Poteet-02.xml [Index]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Introduction","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=0.0,137.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"hi guys so today is wednesday july 15 2020 and this is an interview for the oral history project at trinity university women's intercollegiate athletics. I am Betsy Gerhardt Passley a Trinity graduate of 1977 a former intercollegiate athlete. We also have Dr. Douglas Breckenridge, Professor emeritus department of religion from 1962-2002. Today we're doing the second part of our interview with Shirley Rushing.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=0.0,137.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Shirley Recaps Women's Tennis Foundations","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=137.0,185.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"POTEET: Well, let me recap where we were at the end. I was with the team through 1974. And then, in 1975, they hired Marilyn Montgomery. At that point, I really had nothing else to do with tennis. I went back to my regular teaching role and the other things that I was doing. So I really don't have anything else to say between 1975 and 1980.\n\n","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=137.0,185.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dropping Division I Tennis","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=185.0,769.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BRACKENRIDGE: Maybe I could ask one tennis question. What was your personal response to dropping Division I tennis? That came later. Both what did you think about it at the time, and then in terms of what its ultimate effect was, what was your response to that?\n\nPOTEET: At the time it was dropped, we had some very excellent tennis players, and so I was disappointed for them, and I was sympathetic with their tennis careers. Because they were really interrupted. I did understand the philosophy behind it, and I am in agreement with the transfer to Division III. As hard as it was for the tennis players and the coach at that time, I thought ultimately this is what would happen, and it did. And the fact that they have been able to compete with peer institutions, at a very high level, I think has kind of guaranteed that that has been the right decision to make.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=185.0,769.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Tennis Protests and Sports Coverage","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=769.0,1055.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"PASLEY: Of course, you were there when this change happened. Do you recall what the temperature was on campus? I guess there were protests? What were your memories of those days?\n\nPOTEET: Not much, Betsy. In fact, I learned more about it during this project than I knew when we started. I didn't even know we had people lying down on the courts and things like that. I really was not that aware of all of the protests that were going on, until we started this project. And of course Doug dug all of this out in the Trinitonian and the local papers, also. But I was really unaware of that. Were you here then?\n\nPASLEY: I was not. No, I was gone by then. I left in 1977. We were back in town, and I kind of remember just vaguely seeing some coverage about it, like in the local paper. Because that was probably one of the few things that the paper would cover of Trinity sports, at the time.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=769.0,1055.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Teaching Dance","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=1055.0,1773.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"PASLEY:...But after I left tennis, I had a little more time for dance, which was the major thing that I taught here. And I took a team of ballroom dancers to England to compete with--well, the competition was at Cambridge. We competed with Cambridge and Oxford and Cardiff and Harvard and Yale and Brown, and there were a couple of students from UT. And that was probably the last foray into competition that I had. And we of course didn't score very well, because we weren't that good, but it was a real learning experience for these eight students.\n\nPASLEY: You're right; I had not heard of that. Had you, Doug? (laughs)\n\nBRACKENRIDGE: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, I have. I wrote--I don't know how that got into my narrative, but I did have that in terms of Shirley's biography. But I had a question about the dance, so maybe I can ask it now, is that my memory with some of those interviews, I remember athletes saying that your class was more strenuous than what they had in some of their practices. That this was really--what do you call it?--aerobic. It was really something that was challenging, and so forth. And my other thought was that, having taken your class and more or less failed--","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=1055.0,1773.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"New Insights through the Project","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=1773.0,1853.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"PASLEY: You mentioned the things that you're learning in this project, like the protests when Division I tennis was demoted and all that. What else have you learned as we've been working on this project? Are there things that have reinforced how you felt women's sports has advanced? Or are there things that surprised you?\n\nPOTEET: Not many things that surprised me. Things that reinforced me. And then of course after 1975, I knew very little about it, and what was going on in tennis. And of course Doug had a lot of information on that, all the way up to 2000. I guess one of the things that has impressed me the most are 00:30:00the students, how well they have done in various professions, and how articulate they are in the interviews. And I've found this all the way through my career at Trinity. When you look back at the alumni magazines, and you read articles, many of which Doug has interviewed people, I'm always so pleasantly surprised at the careers of these people and what they have contributed.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=1773.0,1853.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Importance of Libby Johnson","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=1853.0,2174.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"PASLEY: You were part of that early effort for women's sports to be taken seriously. As we've been walking through this project, have you thought or had epiphanies about, \"That must have been a catalyst\"? I'm thinking like a Libby Johnson being--was she the right person in the job at the time? Can you see where maybe some of those turning points or inflection points may have happened, looking back?\n\nPOTEET: Oh, sure. First of all, the biggest turning point for women's athletics across the board was Title IX. So that is responsible for having these--how many different teams do we have now? Eight? Twelve? Whatever. That never, ever would have been possible without Title IX, which came about in 1972, and then started the implementation in 1973. And then along with Title IX came Libby Johnson. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=1853.0,2174.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Recognition of Career","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=2174.0,2410.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BRACKENRIDGE: When we were interviewing the students and asking them about did they feel left out or not treated well--and that even though there were a lot of inequities, it didn't seem to bother them. They were enjoying playing. I'm wondering how you felt, in your career. That you came in at a time when you had to fight for recognition just to be in an athletic department. And at the time, or even looking back, were there regrets, where you'd say, \"Well, I wish things had been different\" or \"I felt like I was shortchanged in my own career\"? Would you want to comment on that?\n\nPOTEET: Yes, I'll comment on that. I guess I feel very much like our athletes felt. This is what was happening at that time. And as far as starting the athletics, this was happening all over the country, all over Texas, especially. But this was happening all over the country. You may recall, Doug, when you were doing history, any time women's athletics was mentioned, it was the women of the physical education department who were in charge of it. I don't think I ever saw it anywhere else. This is what was happening all over the United States, and the women were struggling for money, for recognition. And this is how athletics started all over the country. \n","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=2174.0,2410.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Other Influential Women in Trinity Athletics","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=2410.0,2664.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"PASLEY: When you look back, the obvious people that you've interacted with over these 40-something years or 50 years, specific to women's athletics--obviously Libby Johnson sticks out. You might argue Julie Jenkins or Bob King, who I know you didn't interact as much with. Who are some of the other players that you think really made a difference, men or women, in the progress of women's athletics?\n\nPOTEET: Julie, of course--Julie Jenkins--has been a real find. Janet Bristor, who was employed here as our trainer, made a real impression on the athletes. Before Janet arrived, we had a male trainer in the men's dressing room, and in order for anyone to be treated, then we would have to knock on the door and clear the dressing room and clear a path to the office. So Janet's arrival was with our really equipping a training room for the first time. It struggled for 50 years. So she had a big influence on it.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=2410.0,2664.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Balancing Academics with Athletics ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=2664.0,2941.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"PASLEY: You just reminded me of a question. In most of our interviews, we've asked the students themselves about did they struggle balancing athletics with academics. And one of my favorite stories when I was rereading these, Shirley, was Sue Bachman saying she wouldn't have made it past her freshman year had you not raised a red flag and got Libby to step up and almost adopt Sue her first semester, so that she could focus on studies. Do you remember those early days, when you were involved, when you were in the PE department? Obviously you had a lot of PE majors under your wing as well. Do you remember what those days were like in terms of academics, and professors being supportive of these travel schedules and things like that, or labs?\n\nPOTEET: Yes. In my opinion, academics were tougher in the 1960s than they were in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, because of the curriculum that was required. People were required to take courses. I know our majors struggled, because the first thing they had to take was biology, and they had to have 14 hours of biology to get a physical education major. And so this was a struggle for many of them. Our students struggled, it seems to me, in the 1960s, more than they did any other decade. I had advisees every year, from 1960 on. And I had my first four-point advisee in 1968, and that was Emilie Foster.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=2664.0,2941.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Professor Bias Towards Athletes","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=2941.0,3095.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BRACKENRIDGE: I came in the 1960s, and another thing the athletes had to deal with--there was a whole new generation of young faculty with PhDs, and they were really tough graders. Back then, in the 1960s, a C was a decent grade. You didn't get many As or Bs, and you gave Ds and Fs. So there was definitely a change in the grading, that I think the athletes--and I think people in drama, where they had to miss a lot of things, too--they suffered. But it was just simply true that those athletes, just in terms of grades alone, they had a (laughs) tougher time. There weren't many easy Bs or soft As. They 00:50:00were few and far between. So it was difficult for the athletes. And I know there were some of the younger professors who kind of looked down their nose at athletes, and they really didn't have much respect for them. And that was because they had had bad experiences at college. That's unfortunate. There's always some of that, even today, but not like it was back then.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=2941.0,3095.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Reflecting on Career and Life After Trinity","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=3095.0,3409.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BRACKENRIDGE: I just have two more quick questions. One was, just even beyond the intercollegiate athletics, and we don't want to spend much time on it, but how were you treated as a female faculty member, just in general? And then the last question would be, is there any decision you made you wish you could have done it differently if possible? That's a tough one. But just what about being a woman faculty member, apart from you being in athletics?\n\nPOTEET: Well, first of all, I mentioned before that the first three years, I was in Northrup Hall. And so I was able to meet the entire faculty at that point, which I wouldn't have been if I had been isolated down in the Sams Center. There were I think nine female faculty members when I came. And there was a group that had been here, been on the faculty for some time. In fact, I think one of them came from Waxahachie. And then there was a younger group that came in. I was treated well by all of the women faculty. I was treated well by all of the faculty. Of the younger people who came in, there was Elizabeth Ridenhower in art. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=3095.0,3409.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Reflecting on Project","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=3409.0,3930.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151/index/48425/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BRACKENRIDGE: I'd like to say just one more thing, is that this project that we got into would never have gotten off the ground had Shirley not pushed. It would have just died. And when Peggy had approached you, and she couldn't get anywhere, just seemed like, well, you can't fight City Hall. It was like Shirley was not going to let it go. And that's when I got into it, was because of Shirley and because she was willing to contribute her time and her knowledge and her expertise, that this thing really got going. So I think that needs to be remembered in this history--that that's the role I see you playing, and that I would (laughs) never have gotten involved in it. I know I wouldn't, had you not called me and really wanted me to help. And once I got in it, and once I talked to Peggy and so forth, yeah, it made a difference. But that was another part of the story that I think we are indebted to you. And I appreciate it.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1501/collection_resources/46095/file/119151#t=3409.0,3930.0"}]}]}]}