{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/x921c1vx3d/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Interview with Dr. Arturo Madrid"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/173/original/Logo_CL_ColorReversed.png?1773939905","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eInterview with Aurturo Madrid. TU Treasures Oral History Collection. UAOH003-010. Coates Library Special Collections and Archives. Trinity University (San Antonio, Tex.).\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Trinity University Special Collections and Archives"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThe materials in this collection may be protected by copyright law (Title 17, U.S. Code). The materials are available for personal, educational, and scholarly use. 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(spatial)","1993-2016 (temporal)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["MP3"]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["UAOH003-010 (cms record id)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Conmemorando a la Comunidad: Latinx Experiences at Trinity University (is part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral History","Sound Recording"]}}],"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThe materials in this collection may be protected by copyright law (Title 17, U.S. Code). The materials are available for personal, educational, and scholarly use. It is the responsibility of the researcher to locate and obtain permission from the copyright owner or his or her heirs for any other use, such as reproduction and publication.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Trinity University Special Collections and Archives"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Trinity University Special Collections and Archives"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/173/original/Logo_CL_ColorReversed.png?1773939905","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collections/default_thumbs/000/002/313/small/Confluence_graphic_%282%29.jpg?1704393526","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - madrid-arturo-20230606-mix_PIIedit.mp3"]},"duration":6503.04533,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collections/default_thumbs/000/002/313/small/Confluence_graphic_%282%29.jpg?1704393526","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-trinityuniversity.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/222/885/original/madrid-arturo-20230606-mix_PIIedit.mp3?1704227925","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":6503.04533,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Interview with Dr. Arturo Madrid [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MORA: It is recording.\n\n\nDENNEY: Alright, Today is June 6th, 2023, I am Lee Denney, a student at Trinity University, and today I am interviewing Dr. Arturo Madrid. Dr. Madrid is a Professor Emeritus at Trinity and was the inaugural Murchison distinguished professor of the humanities from 1993 to 2016. I am also joined by Seb Mora, who will be monitoring– monitoring the recording equipment. The interview today will mainly focus on Latino experiences at Trinity as well as the Mexico, Americas, and Spain program. This interview is being recorded for the Conmemorando a la Comunidad: Latinx Experiences at Trinity University and archived with the University Archives, part of Trinity University’s Special Collections and Archives in Coates Library. \n\nUm, so first, what was it like for you growing up? Walk me through some of your earliest childhood memories, of family, friends, community, schooling, the places you lived.\n\nMADRID: I had um, not particularly typical Latino, background origins. I grew up in a very small town in Northern New Mexico. I ––distinguished by a couple of things, um like members of my community, my neighbors, my friends, we were not Catholic, we were Protestants and number two, my parents were both professionals, and both college educated. The lovely thing about growing up in a small town is, you knew everybody and everybody knew you. You had–– there were no boundaries essentially, except the boundaries your parents set on you. You could wander anywhere, do anything, you were safe, there’s somebody already, always keeping an eye on you. \n\nMy childhood was essentially defined by–– as was my life, for eighty years, by school, the school year, because my father was, was a school teacher and then a school administrator. So everything ran on the basis of the school year. So once I went to school it was the same, for me, school during the year, during the fall, winter, and spring. And, being away from school during the summer. It was distinguished also by the fact that my parents, being professional, there were two or three things that became very, very obvious in my development, as I’ve thought about it, one of them is social status, which meant that I was, I was part of a larger world beyond my little community. And my parents, my mother was involved in politics so we knew all of the political figures. My father was a schoolteacher so we knew the world of school. The second that we had, like most of the [unclear], say 99, 95% of my peers, we had books at home, we had magazines at home, we had newspapers. We had a record player, so we had music as well and my parents listened to music. And third, we traveled. My parents took us places so we got to see other places. So my horizons were not geographic’s horizons with a little amount of knowledge of where we live, but rather a larger horizon made of available to me by books, by magazines, by subsequently, by TV and of course by travel.\n\nDENNEY: That’s nice. Um, so what was it like to be a Latino college student in the 1960’s? \n\nMADRID: Um, you know, New Mexico was, different from the rest of the Latino world even at, as it was very similar in many ways to the larger Latino world. We were Latinos, and I’m just going to use that term, Latinos in general, to describe us. The make-up of New Mexicans is very curious, so we could talk about that at some point if you want to but it’s not central to our discussion. We were a class apart, there was the Anglo-American community, the Euro-American community, or, you might want to refer to them. And then there was us. And the us, of course, was divided socioeconomically. So my parents were stayed in the middle rung by virtue of being educated and being professionals and there was discrimination, clearly, but if you lived in a community as we did, where we were the majority, we didn’t experience that discrimination or that sense of being the other in the way that you would’ve if you lived in a more and were surrounded by Euro-Americans.\n\nSo, we were at the center of our world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=0.0,300.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So that, now the moment you moved beyond that little world, and came in contact with the larger world, you knew that you were the other, that you were somebody else. And so, going to school, I went to most of my schooling in this little community of Terra Maria. My senior year I transferred to Presbyterian boarding school and there were more Euro-Americans there than previously and then when I entered the university it was very clear by then, at the time, that we were not the majority, even though we were a very large percentage of the population of New Mexico. At the university we were a very definite minority. And there were two types of Latino experiences, I think, maybe three types. There were the young people who were already part of the larger world, who were very comfortable with it and mingled with it more or less peers. You could see when it wasn’t. There were people like me, who had grown up betwixt and between the two worlds, were, were– sure of themselves socially, in their world, and weren’t poor so we didn’t have the burden of being poor. And then there were young people who had grown up even more marginally than I had, because they came from small communities and had not had advantages that I had as well. So, it was different for the different Latino groups. For me it was very schizophrenic, one might say, probably not the most appropriate term, because I was part of a Protestant world, which was principally white, principally white.  But I was also part of a Hispano world, part of which was white, part of which was Protestant, part of which was Catholic. And so, I, my, my Euro-American friends tend to be Protestants. And my Latino friends tended to be, for the most part, other Protestants but also Catholics. So, we were not part of the infrastructure of the institution, we were not a part of the sororities, or fraternities. We were not part of the honor societies. Some of us were, by virtue of our scholarship, but we were not invited, for example, I can tell you, that I do not remember when the honor society– other organizations, when honors was a step to hearing [unclear/unsure] school. There was a cutoff, and they started with sophomores, but I met a few juniors. I should have been a part of that group, but I wasn’t included, because La– Hispanos were not part of that world. Maybe one or two. And it was, the rare person who was a Hispano or Latino who was part of that world. \n\nThat didn’t mean that we were not admitted to the honors society, etcetera. If you were accomplished academically. But, we were very clearly a class apart. Very different.\n\nDENNEY: Thank you. \n\nABREU-TORRES: I have a follow-up question for that. Given that you were not part of the infrastructure, how the Latinos got together, what did you do, like organizations or maybe gatherings that you would do?\n\nMADRID: I do not recall any other, then say, there was a Newman Center for Catholics. And I remember some of my friends would go to Newman Center. In my case, I was part of a Presbyterian group. And I do not recall any Latino organizations at all. I do recall young people who joined fraternities and sororities. But there were the exception. So, I do not recall any ethnic organizations during my time at school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=300.0,600.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DENNEY: Alright. Um, overall, what was your experience like as an undergraduate at the University of New Mexico?\n\nMADRID: It was a wonderful experience. I lived at this boarding school --where I told you I had transferred to my senior [year]. I lived there and we had a built-in community, that was very nice [unclear], a supportive community, each other. Some of my classmates, at the university, were older than I was. And then of course, in time, they were younger than I was. But we created a community which was a very supportive community, for, because we shared information and shared books, textbooks, and the like. So, it was very good, and encouraged each other, help each other with our studies. We didn’t live in the school and commuted every day to the university. We go in the morning, little school bus, come back for lunch, go back after lunch, and then we went in the evening to study in the evenings for several hours which is very, highly structured. That’s the way you get young people through. You create this community and bind it, and you, structure. And so, it helped us a great deal. The–– repeat your question again please, because I got a little-- \n\nDENNEY: What was your experience like as an undergraduate––\n\nMADRID: Yeah.\n\nDENNEY: At the University––\n\nMADRID: Yeah. I had a very good undergraduate experience. By virtue, I think, I had a very good school preparation. Not the best, but very good. And so, I had a very good of control of English, so I didn't have to take, what they’d call it, bonehead English, back then. I was able to go to a regular English classroom, which I got credit right away. I had another advantage, that I had a couple of roommates who were engineering majors, and they helped me through algebra, and so I did very well in algebra. I was a philosophy major back then, and I did well in my philosophy. So, I felt very empowered academically. I, I did not feel that I was, in any word, disadvantaged. I tended to see myself, think of myself as younger than everybody else present around me, because I was in classes with older people than I was. But, I held my own. I think, principally, by virtue of my English language abilities, my writing abilities and my discipline, that I worked at it. I made some very dear friends during that period. Through the church, the Presbyterian. But then that expanded subsequently a little bit, and they were my, two, two groups of people. The people from the church that I associated with the Euro-Americans, and my friends, buddies, who were all, Latinos. And we, we bonded, we, we did things as a group. That was my social circle. \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. Did you have any Latino professors white you were at–\n\nMADRID: Yes! I, unlike most Latinos, at that period, I did. At the University of New Mexico. There were several Latino professors, but I had one, principally, Latino professor, I ended up majoring in Spanish when he was a professor– Hispanic. And he came from my hometown, so there was a connection. When I went off to the university my parents took him– took me to him and said ‘Here, here he is’. And they trusted me to him so, he attended to me during those four years, sent me off to graduate school, subsequently. And I would come in contact with Latino professors here and there, in education, engineering, and some other fields. But not all, principally in education, but not a lot, if I, if there were half a dozen, probably not many-- Graduate students more. \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. How have these experiences informed your decision to continue your education and your eventual doctorate degree?\n\nMADRID: You know, a moment ago I was talking about all of the, majors and options that you have right now, and, and at my age, my point in life, it was a very reduced sense of possibilities. Not only majors, but the possibility of professions, okay? So for my limited world view, growing up in this world, you could be a lawyer, you could be, I found out, I could be an engineer. You could go to the military,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=600.0,900.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you could go to work for the state or federal, or county government. Or you could go to the military. So, I found out, that there were professors, that was interesting what they did, and then there was a moment, when because of the Cold War, and because of the first satellite to spin into space by the Russians, the United States decides ‘Okay, we have competition in the works, we need to respond to’ and created a whole set of programs to encourage people to study science and engineering and to study the rest of the world. So, that included Latin America. And so there were fellowships to go out and pursue graduate study in Spanish and Portuguese, and so, I had left one option out because that option for me was I could go to the church. And for several years, I considered going into the church and becoming a minister. I decided that was not for me. So this was a nice way to opt out of that, and so I went off to grad school. \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. So what ultimately led you to Trinity University?\n\nMADRID: [Laughter] What led me to Trinity? Was, um, the fact after some twenty years –twenty years, let’s see, ‘65 to say, ‘85, that’s twenty years, right? Twenty years of being in higher education, I said ‘I do not want to be a University administrator, I’m not a scholar’. That was not the road I chose. I liked the teaching very much. I liked being engaged in educational activities. And I said to myself, I was at that moment, at the University of Minnesota, and I wanted out, because I did not want to be in the cold, and I did not want to be at such a large place. And I wanted to be somewhere where there were Latinos. I thought, ‘I’m going start looking for a place that’s small, that’s in Latinolandia’ [laughter]. And where they would appreciate me as a teacher and somebody who is engaged in larger issues and just not simply, you know, studying. Knowing more and more about less and less. This is a criticism of your colleague here. [gestures towards Dr. Dania Abreu-Torres] \n\nABREU-TORRES: No.\n\nMADRID: My scholar friends, they know more and more about less and less. Except this generation. This generation now says: ‘Eh forget that! We want to know more and more about more and more’ which is very nice. But I wasn’t a part of that generation. My generation was, you knew more and more about less and less. So that was the basis. The second reason I came, ended up at Trinity was, as part of my larger activities in the creation of a National Chicano academic network, I came in contact with the President of Trinity University, and bided his support and his engagement. And, I ran into him a couple of years later. And we were at a conference and said ‘Are you available for lunch?’ I said ‘Sure’. So he says ‘I want your advice. How do I bring more Latino students at Trinity?’ Okay, I like that. We finished our discussion and talk about something else. He says ‘Would you like to come and spend a semester at Trinity University?’ And I said ‘Yeah, good.’ Okay, he says ‘How about next fall?’. Okay, I’m fine, I’m cool. And that’s where it started. What happened, and this is a parenthesis — The fellow that was going to come that spring, had to postpone his coming to Trinity until the next fall, which bumped me. Meanwhile, some colleagues of mine asked me if I would get involved in founding an institute for policy studies on Latinos. And so, they said you’re the obvious choice, so I did it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=900.0,1200.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And rather than coming to Trinity, for nine years, I did that. And every year my friend, the President of Trinity University would say ‘When are you coming?’. So nine years later, I came; he brought me down. \n\nABREU-TORRES: Was this President Calgaard? \n\nMADRID: President Calgaard. Yeah. A titan. \n\nMORA: Okay, before we continue, I am picking up the rain, crazy and loud in the audio. So, I don’t know what to do, it’s loud. \n\nMORA: Okay, it is now recording. \n\nDENNEY: Alright, okay, could you explain exactly what brought the Tomás Rivera center to San Antonio? More specifically, Trinity?\n\nMADRID: Yes, you know the backstory little bit now. That I ended up not coming to Trinity in the Fall of 1984 and instead going off to found what came to be known as the Tomás Rivera center. The moment was interesting because Ronald Reagan had been elected President and one of the components of his program, his policy, was that powers was going to devolve back to the states and not going to be concentrated in the federal government. And all kinds of funding agencies, private funding agencies took a cue from that. So, the original idea was to have the Tomás Rivera center located in Washington, DC, but that died [phone ringing] So instead. I’m going to turn this off. I’m going to have to turn this one off too. \n\nMORA: I can just edit it out, it’ll be fine. [recording stops]\n\nMORA: We can start now. [laughter]\n\nMADRID: The decision was to establish it in California, and then to begin to develop and branch off in Latino concentrated states. So the first one after California was Texas. Already knew President Calgaard, so I came to him, and then secretary, not quite there, then mayor Cisneros was a member of my board, so we invited Dr. Calgaard to join us, he joined the board. And then we approached him about opening an office here at Trinity first. And since we were based in a private institution in California, it made sense here to also be in a private institution in San Antonio. And that’s how the Tomás Rivera center ended up here.\n\nDENNEY: Thank you. So while conducting research for this interview, it was hard to find some of the activities and specific roles you played as the organization’s President. Can you please walk us through your time as the President of the Tomás Rivera Center?\n\nMADRID: Yes. First, it’s very important to understand that the Tomás Rivera Center was an independent, 501 c (3), that is a tax-exempt organization. And it had an affiliation with Trinity University but it was not connected to Trinity University. In fact, some of my then colleagues, subsequent colleagues, were very miffed at the fact that there was this place down there and it had to do with Latinos and they were not part of it and I had to say ‘This has nothing to do with Trinity University. It's an arrangement that we have with you’. But, we were able, however, to incorporate Trinity University students into our work. And one of them I remember very clearly because he was a very dear friend to somebody that you just missed out, just barely missed out: Professor Michael Soto came and he was very close friends with Pablo Martinez, who is one of our interns. He came and visited and many years later, he comes back as a Professor and you now know his son, probably, now known as Luna.\n\nDENNEY: Yes, I do. My roommate was friends, yeah. \n\nMADRID: Yeah. So we, I’ve known his father since he was an undergraduate student, not here but that turned into— So we did incorporate young people into our work. The, the institute had as its driving purpose, to make every effort to ensure that Latinos were part of public policy formulation. And the reason for that is because Latinos historically","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=1200.0,1500.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"had not been seen as their issues in concerns of -- had not been seen as a public issues and concerns. They’re private, familial, cultural. Ugh, that’s, they’re from family origins, what’s their culture, that has nothing to do with us. So they don’t go to school because their culture doesn’t permit it not because they don’t provide money for schools and good teachers, etcetera. But because their culture and their family and they’d rather just not— Part of our thing was to say ‘Look, Latinos are part of this community and they need to be considered part of public policy and public policy needs to be shaped by Latinos’. Which is a good service. At all levels, at the local level, at the state level, at the federal level. And our two folk sides were education and the economy. So ensuring that educational policy was responsive to Latino needs and concerns. And that economic policies, particularly in the area of employment, were also responsive to Latino issues and concerns. And that’s a whole seminar, okay.\n\nDENNEY: Thank you. So what were some of the challenges of the Tomás Rivera center?\n\nMADRID: The biggest challenge was having people understand this very central issue. That is, that our concerns were not familial and culture. That our concerns really had to do with a larger world being of a community and there were multiple examples of this, some of which predate the Tomás Rivera center and some of them postdate the Tomás Rivera center, and some of which we were very centrally involved in. Let me give you a couple examples. So until the 1970’s, and into the 1980’s, there were no sidewalks in the Westside. There was no sewage system in the Westside. Until the community started getting together, it was sort of flooding on a constant, there was no garbage pickup, etcetera. So it’s cultural and all, ‘they don’t take care their yards, they don’t take care of their streets, they don’t pick up the garbage’. There were no services essentially, just not. And so, an organization was developed to be --was developed that took on the city and forced the city to attend to these matters. When the Tomás Rivera Center– that’s one example– when the Tomás Rivera Center gets established, one of the things we see is that there are essentially no economic institutions on the Westside. You couldn’t go to a bank, because there were no bank outlets. Maybe there was one savings \u0026 loan? Okay. There was no change store or little mom \u0026 pop shops, etcetera. So we exposed that, and to the chagrin of many people, including the Hispanic chamber of commerce, ‘What? What? What? What? They’re exposing us’ And it’s true. Here, you have the case and so -- now, you can say it’s double edged because the HEB basically closed down all the mom \u0026 pop shops. That’s one of the consequences of policy. It can be– it can be, Trinity, it can lead to unintended consequences. But we did address issues, the funding of schools, for example, that’s still an issue to this day. Maybe, maybe this next session they’ll change it but essentially, it’s based in schools– school funding is based on your tax base. If your tax base is very low, your schools are going to be very unsupported. Alamo Heights has all the money it needs for anything. The Westside schools? Forget ‘em. So those are the kinds of issues, economic, just a couple of examples of economic issues that we took on.\n\nDENNEY: And what were some of the successes of the Tomás Rivera center?\n\nMADRID: I think probably one of the successes was that we had a major role in making the larger society aware of the fact that Latinos concerns and issues could be addressed through policy. Now, was it easy to have that thing done? Was it easy to get the attention of policymakers on that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=1500.0,1800.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"No. But, little by little, in conjunction with other forces, we were able to get that developed. We did it in multiple ways. We did it through seminars, we’ll hold seminars. We invited legislators, city council people, school board members to our seminars and say: ‘These are the issues, these are our options, that you can look; these are our resources, that you can utilize’. So we did that. And, it also was a good place for academics to coalesce around, at some institutions there were Chicano studies centers that people could coalesce on, but in many places, there weren’t, so these Latino professors were looking for a place that could connect with to get engaged in their concerns, and so we did that. And so we --I think we were part of an effort to develop a cadre of Latino academics that were interested and concerned with Latino public policy issues. And it had in its base in something that the late Tomás Rivera had stated as a rationale for creating this policy center. He says: ‘We now have built up an extraordinary fund of knowledge about Latinos, but the people who make decisions about Latinos have no idea what that fund of knowledge is.’ So our job is to connect with that larger group and get it, say ‘you have some expertise here that you can use for these purposes’. And so, we didn’t do it alone, but we certainly gave it major impetus. Because all of a sudden, there was a cadre of very highly qualified and very visible people addressing issues. One of the things I did for example to assure that Latino issues became a part of the national conversation was to convene Latino journalists who then went and wrote pieces in their newspapers or on radio, or, you know, on television. And I spent a great deal of time on radio and television. I’m at peace. I sent a whole collection of them to Northern New Mexico college, it’s part of an archive there.\n\nDENNEY: Thank you. So how, you’ve touched on this already, but, how did the center engage with the San Antonio Latino community? \n\nMADRID: Directly and indirectly. Indirectly because we became a place, first place at Trinity University, but all of a sudden it was in this white campus, as it was seen. It was an Anglo– There was– there was an expression I heard when I came here first, and it was Pablo Martinez, our colleague, Pablo Martinez, was the one who had first said this, that people referred to Trinity, ‘oh the place with the gringos on the hill’. And, so, all of a sudden there’s this place that is not that, it’s something else. Not to say that there weren’t Latino persons already at Trinity University but this was a very visible place. So indirectly, to say, oh, this is very serious, very substantive, very distinguished and capable people are working on these issues and they’re bringing people to bear on. And, the second one was the initiatives, one of which was a major initiative. That study led to the establishment of economic institutions in the Westside, came out of a study we carried out called the “Westside Story” about the informal economy of the Westside because there was no essential, formal economy where you could go to a bank and say ‘I need to borrow money’ so you went to your best friend’s father and said ‘I need a hundred dollars’ to get something going. And so it was an informal economy so we exposed that informal economy and so, oops, okay. So, and all kinds of initiatives began to grow out of that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=1800.0,2100.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We may not have driven them, but we provided the impetus, we shone light on it and said ‘okay, this needs doing.’ \n\nDENNEY: And how, if at all, did this center engage with the Trinity community?\n\nMADRID: It didn’t, except","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=2100.0,2100.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"for the occasional student that would learn about us, and then we incorporated, and we were, we stood quite apart from it. \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. So, more, the next series of questions will be about your experience as a faculty member, so describe to me what it was like to be a Trinity in those initial weeks and months as a new faculty member. \n\nMADRID: It was a very interesting experience, and I had some successes and some failures in that regard. But on the whole, it was a very positive experience. Because I found, when I arrived, I had one Chicano colleague in sociology, the rest of my colleagues were either Mexicanos or Latin Americans. So one of the first things I realized that I need to begin to do was to push to get more Latinos on the faculty. People that were concerned with issues relating to the Latino populations in the United States, as opposed to Mexicanos, or Latin Americans, or whatever– So that was one of my first times to make sure that people knew I was there, and, so I made it a point to meeting as many colleagues as I possibly could, taking them to lunch and asking them what I needed to do, how I would fit in, etcetera, etcetera. That was very— sometime I’ll tell Dania about it. Very interesting experience. \n\nThe second one was there was a very small group of Chicano students that had formed, or continued a MEChA, Movimiento [Estudiantil] Chicano de Aztlan, en Aztlan. There may have been ten of them. So, I said ‘Okay, I’ll be your sponsor’. So, we started working at getting more people into it and getting together and do things. And the third thing I did was I had classes, two classes, to appeal to Latino students and non-Latino students. And they started coming to my classes. So even though there were not part of MEChA, and they were not wanting to say they were Hispano or Chicano or Mexican or anything, wanting to fit in. Nobody here but us little– and they started coming during classes and say ‘Oh okay, there’s some space for us.’ Out of that group, because MEChA didn’t continue, but out of that group, came a number of students in the very early years that said ‘you know, it’s okay to speak Spanish, it’s okay to be a Latino’. And they were confident enough to say ‘It’s alright!’. And when they started saying it was okay, other kids started saying ‘well I guess it’s alright’. So they said, well, let’s create an organization, because MEChA’s not working for us. They didn’t identify necessarily as Chicanos, there’s still some Chicanos. But there were other young people, Latin Americans, and from other places that– okay, Latino sounds alright. Everybody, when asked, if pushed to ask, what they were, would say ‘I’m Hispanic’. But that was all. Default answer. But Latino, they could affirm something. \n\nSo these young people, with my support and help, help create Latino Exchange. And that was the Latino organization for my moment, because I was there when MEChA died. And I was– when I left there was TULA [Trinity University Latino Association], and then TULA becomes something else. And if you go back overtime, I suspect you’ll find that there were other organizations even before MEChA. Luis Martinez is in the --.\n\nMORA: Yes, I just had a question. So part of this like research projects, involves us coming up with digital exhibits, and the digital exhibit that I’m overseeing is an exhibit on student organizations and it’s funny that you say the Latino Exchange program, because as I have been digging through the University Archives, I have found absolutely nothing on what the Latino Exchange program was, um, I asked the University Archivist if there was anything else and all we have is a constitution and nothing else, so can you please, just like share","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=2100.0,2400.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"any events that students held, what like, the main goal of the Latino Exchange program was? Any setbacks? Any successes? \n\nMADRID: Its main objective was to celebrate Latino culture and the Latino experience. That was the expression but essentially also was to bring Latinos together. We were not exclusive. That was the difference, and as Professor [Abreu-Torres] will tell you, MAS comes out of that kind of mindset. That was not exclusive, it was inclusive, so you didn’t have to be Latino to be part of Latino Exchange –we got some kids that were part of the Latino Exchange but they were not Latinos but they were interested and concerned on Latino issues. Probably the, the most visible, most visible expressions in a public sense, come out of the, an event, a celebration that my Antonia was responsible for. She was still, let’s say I think, betwixt and between, she came, her first year, at the Institute for Texan Cultures, second year she went up to UT Austin, I think it was even before she ended up at Saint Mary’s. She said ‘So what are you going to do at Trinity University, about Latinos?’ I said: ‘Oh well, I’m going to teach,’ ‘But besides that?’ ‘Well I get together with my students’ ‘Well c’mon, something?’ I said ‘Like what?’ She says: ‘You know, there’s a celebration that’s pretty big in San Antonio but it’s not part of Trinity’ It’s a Día de los Muertos, the Day of the Dead. She said ‘Why don’t you celebrate that?’ —Okay. [Laughter] ‘I found you somebody to help you out’ ‘Okay’ So, found somebody to help me, and when we went, and presented it. Said we’d like to build an altar. You want do what? [laughter] Before your time, almost every non-academic administrator at Trinity University was ex-military.\n\nDENNEY: Mhmm.\n\nMADRID: And Protestants. They say, ‘What?’ So, because we lobbied, they let us set it up. Sometime, walk by Chapman Student Center [Coates Student Center], there’s that curved wall, they put it over on the curve, so you could only see it from the outside. Because, somebody might and do damage to it. No, they didn’t want to see it. So that’s– that was our first one, and then, by the next time, we were able to have it more visible, and more and more people got involved and for something like fifteen years we did that on a regular basis.\n\nMORA: Yeah, I remember, I think it was like in the 90’s, um San Antonio Express News came to Trinity and took a picture of it, so it’s actually kind of interesting—\n\nMADRID: Let me tell you people were pissed! [Laughter] \n\nMORA: Not surprising.\n\nMADRID: ‘What! We do it every year! And Trinity does it, and they got their– freaking front page of the newspaper!’ [They were] really frosted about that! \n\nMORA: Yeah, um, well like as I was digging through the archives, that was the first time we had ever heard of any like, the Dia de los Muertos being celebrated at Trinity and it was in the 90’s so it’s like crazy that you tell me this because like, I had thought that the Express News was the first time Trinity had done this, but now you’re telling me that they’re doing this fifteen years before so I think that’s pretty interesting. \n\nMADRID: Yeah, yeah. There was a rather amazing that first year we did it. Had the San Antonio express news article– or the San Antonio Light– forget which it was. That has a little corollary, which I’ll say real quickly. So, we want more public spaces, you know so there’s other public spaces– this one is not quite fitting and there’s other things going on so, there’s that lovely lobby in the Music, the old music and art building, what’s the name of that wonderful space in front of the theater?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=2400.0,2700.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ABREU-TORRES: The courtyard? \n\nMADRID: Yeah. The courtyard, right? You walk down into it and then it opens up into the theater and then you– So, we decide, we’ll do it there. The Vice President of Student Affairs, I go to a reception, and she said ‘you know there’s problems’ I said ‘Yeah, I’ve heard’ ‘We have a major event happening in Laurie Auditorium, and they’re going to be walking through there on the way to Laurie Auditorium.’ I said: ‘So?’ ‘Well, we’re concerned lest there be damage to the altars there’. No. They didn’t want their public to see this, this heathen, pagan, quasi-Catholic, thing there. She said ‘Could we change it to another day?’\n\nDENNEY: Oh my god.\n\nMORA: No.\n\nMADRID: And my colleague, Jorge Gonzalez, whom you remember, he’s with me. And I said ‘Well –I said- as long as we're at it, why don’t we change Thanksgiving to Christmas too?’ That was it. No more. That was the last opposition we had to it. That was what made it. We also held other events, not as prominent, not as visible, but for Christmas, we also held the, I’m blanking out on what you call it– when Joseph and Mary go from–\n\nABREU-TORRES: Posadas?\n\nMADRID: Posadas! We held posadas. Led, very interestingly, by a young women who went on to become a Protestant minister. But she was the organizer [Laughs] of the posada. And here this Protestant is organizing the Día de los Muertos. It’s very, very interesting. So that was one of the– but mainly, mainly over the course of time its principal accomplishment was– people decide ‘it’s okay to be Latino at Trinity University and you could speak Spanish’. And you could celebrate issues and you didn’t have to apologize. I’m not saying that everybody, every Latino on campus felt that same way, but certainly. And they started showing up for my classes. More and more. But by the end, Dania, you need to know this, over half my classes were Anglo and not Latinos. And part of the reason for that is they could find there were other professors, that they could go to. They didn’t have to come to my classes anymore. But when I came, I was the only one there was. \n\nDENNEY: You mentioned earlier that there was a Chicano professor in the Sociology department, are you able to recall any other colleagues who were also Latino?\n\nMADRID: Well, as I say, because Latinos become so amorphous, we had people that identified as Latino, even though their, their historical experience had not been in the United States. So, Professor Jorge Gonzalez was Mexicano and studied the United States, lent himself totally to this, he went on to become President of a college in Michigan—\n\nABREU-TORRES: Kalamazoo? \n\nMADRID: Kalamazoo College. Professor Huesca – it isn’t Huesca-- \n\nABREU-TORRES: Rob?\n\nMADRID: No, in [coughs] el esposo de Teresa Van Hoy, Roberto Hasfura, Mathematician. He was very much involved in early-- Professor Pablo Martinez was very involved in those early days as well. Subsequently we got Professor Rob Huesca, which is retired last year, very much engaged in these matters. And over the course of time, we were able to recruit other people, Professor, I think the first one, was Professor, my memory, that was I centrally involved with, was Professor Rita Urquijo-Ruiz. And subsequently, did Debra precede you [referring to Dr. Abreu-Torres] or did you precede Debra? \n\nABREU-TORRES: Debra preceded me.\n\nMADRID: Debra Ochoa was–\n\nMORA: I had, I had Spanish classes with Professor Ochoa both my fall semester. \n\nMADRID: Good, good for you. And, Professor Abreu-Torres came as well. Professor Soto joins","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=2700.0,3000.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"us in those years as well. We have our friend in Education–\n\nABREU-TORRES: Delgado? Rocio Delgado?\n\nMADRID: Rocio Delgado joins us and in Religion we had Luis, I’m forgetting his last name, succeeded by Angela, Angela-- \n\nABREU-TORRES: I didn’t met Luis– Angela Tarango.\n\nMADRID: Angela Tarango joins our faculty. We had one fellow in Psychology for a while, and moved on, he was a Mexicano, he joined in, with us. Blanking out on other– Oh! We had oh! Of course, a major coup for us, was convince the History department to hire a Mexicanist. And, because there had always been somebody of a Latin American as opposed to Mexican. We convinced them to hire a Mexicanist instead. And so it brought us a Chicano, Mexican-American who was local, local boy. He, he came back, was here for about eight years, I guess?\n\nABREU-TORRES: Yeah. \n\nMADRID: Yeah.\n\nMADRID: Aaron Navarro. He went on to TCU [Texas Christian University]. So, we built up, and of course we had newer American allies who were very, very supportive, also, of our work. \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. \n\nMADRID: But, specifically, with respect to Chicanos, which was the men– the initial, those numbers did not grow. But, the Latino component, expanded extraordinarily. Beautiful. \n\nDENNEY: And, generally, what was your relationship with Latino colleagues? \n\nMADRID: I think without patting myself on the back, I think I served as a mentor. I think I also created a space where they could function because as I was suggesting by the example I was giving on that, there was not much space, so I had to create space. So, cultural space, linguistic space. Let me give you an example of this too, I had wanted to teach a course in the English department, on Mexican-American literature and Latino literature. Because I didn’t have a PhD in English, I couldn’t. I had wanted to teach a course in the History department, same thing. ‘You got to start, you got to have a PhD in History’ So, I managed to create a little space so that some, there’s still resistance. A professor, my successor found out, the English department still does that. In spite the fact that Norma Cantu has a PhD in English. They’re closed, they’re very closed. History department will still not hire somebody to do Chicano or Latino history. \n\nAt least in Sociology, Professor Spener takes on these issues. And in the Education department, Professor Rocío Delgado arrived and transformed that department too, and a major transformation to that department. Psychology, still not– unfortunately. You would think that in Communications, but they haven’t replaced Rob Huesca. You would think in the– what they’d call it– Human Communications, which is Drama, you would think, that there– nothing. So, it, what I did was create some space in letting my colleagues expand it a bit. The third thing I would say is I changed the mindset of– people think ‘Oh Mexicans’. The anecdotes are extraordinary. For example, Rob Huesca told me about a meeting he had, I think, we need to raise some money for the department so we can do some things here. And he said: ‘Well, we really should approach the Mexican community, there’s radio stations and TV stations.’ They say, and somebody says: ‘Ah, Mexicans don’t give money’ So, that dismisses everything, that was the framework. So he had to work at changing those frameworks and calling people and saying","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=3000.0,3300.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"‘C’mon, c’mon give it break’ \n\n DENNEY: Thank you. Alternatively, what were your relationships like with non-Latino colleagues? \n\nMADRID: Very good. I had an extensive network of colleagues over the years. I will tell you, and this was this, I think Dania can appreciate, need to learn a little bit from it as well. Because I came in as a distinguished professor, because I came in with a stature that was not defined strictly by the university, had been a university professor, at multiple universities, elite private, elite public, mass public, Minnesota, mass public institution, I’d been a federal government appointee, I’d run an institute for policy studies, I had lots and lots of visibility and lots of stature independent of academics.  So, I didn’t fit the stereotype of Mexican. There were people who said ‘Oh the only thing Arturo is interested in is Mexicans’. And I’ll tell you now what I do about that. I was able to engage a wider band of people that went beyond my department or beyond my Latino colleagues. And I did that because Antonia and I started hosting receptions every time we had a guest from out of town or somebody was just from out of town, we’d hold a reception for the person at our home. And invite, so people started— ‘Ooh this interesting, I guess there’s something to be learned here’— started coming. So, the range of my colleagues and my connections expanded and if there was a function someplace, a talk or something I showed up. And I was there in the front row. And I would ask a question. So I’d say ‘Okay, I’m here, there’s more of us,’ So I was very deliberate. Very, very deliberate. I’ve not ever spoken about this but it was very deliberate. And so, I made friends with as many as the distinguished professors because, back then they were called distinguished professors– I could. I attended their presentations when they had guests I was there, etcetera. So I made myself very visible there, you know. \n\n DENNEY: Thank you. \n\nMADRID: It was aided by the fact that three years, four years, after I was here, I was given a National Medal of the Humanities and Doctor Calgaard took full advantage of that. So, everybody knew who Arturo Madrid was. Even if they didn’t want to. [Laughter] \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. And so, what was the student body makeup like when you first began working at Trinity?\n\nMADRID: As I said there were Latinos on campus, Hispanics, Mexican-Americans. Few in number, and– and trying to be invisible for the most part. Or, trying to incorporate themselves into the larger structure. They started showing up in my classes. Whenever I saw what I assume would be a Latino student I introduced myself, I was not shy about that. I introduced myself to everybody. I decided, people know– need to know that I’m here, and that I’m not aloof, I’m not this distinguished professor who only talks to other distinguished professors. I want to talk to everybody. As Dania might tell you, even the Aramark staff knew me. To this day, they still know who I am. The janitors, the people, everybody knew who Dr. Madrid was. I mean myself. And I made myself known to students so that if the students wanted to approach me I didn’t push them, they wanted to approach, okay. And they would show up to my classes and then they participated in Latino Exchange and they came to events having to do with Latinos. And that, that began to then create the sense, Okay, if you talk to some of the young people from that period -- they’re not so young anymore, because I-I’ve been here 30 years already. This August will be 30 years. So that’s 30 years of classes, just about. They would say ‘Yeah, we begin to feel that it was our place, that Trinity belonged to us too’. I think that that’s what they would say.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=3300.0,3600.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Trinity now is ours.\n\nDENNEY: Thank you. And, did you notice any differences in the experiences of Latino and non-Latino students?\n\nMADRID: You know, I, the sharpest distinctions became very apparent very quickly to me because I taught a first-year seminar every year that I was at Trinity. Except, the year that I was on sabbatical. I was on sabbatical one full year, and that year I didn’t teach. But every year I taught a first-year seminar and the last year’s summer bridge program. And so I would see the full range of students when they entered. And some of them were very privileged, but that was the least of it. Some of them were very well prepared and others were not very well prepared. And it didn’t matter that they were Latino or not Latino. I’ve argued, time and time again, that there’s not much difference between Latino students and non-Latino students if you principally look at their socio-economic standing. Because, if you have privilege, it changes everything. So I would see the distinctions there and little by little over the course of time, I began to see two things: people coming, like you [referring to Mora], although of the charter school, that came already, highly socialized right? Because part of it was the socialization, doing things, knowing things, having new experiences, saying “okay, I have connections with other students.” And of course, the rise in the number of students that came out of middle class, Latino students who came out of middle-class conditions. Their parents had been teachers, etcetera, etcetera. And saying “Okay I guess it’s alright to be Latino.” And that changed the dynamic here because they were also, they were also identifying as Latino, they were not shy in a way of being evidently Latino. Even though they were very comfortable, they were socializing with the larger community, and participating in the larger student activities. Because, for a long time, they just didn’t, they were just marginal. They were not part of any sort of sports, for example, they were not part of the glee club or the music groups, or the theater groups, or stuff like that. I began to see that change over the course of time. \n\nDENNEY: Were you involved in any organizations on campus as an advisor or as a member?\n\nMADRID: Only to Latino Exchange. \n\nDENNEY: Were you an advisor to any Latino students? \n\nMADRID: Informally. For many, many years. Simply because I didn’t teach the central courses in the Spanish section. I taught my general ed courses and maybe one or two courses in regular curriculum and they were not part of the central curriculum. I never taught a course as part of the central curriculum. Never, ever once. Not ever once. \n\nMORA: That’s actually really shocking to hear. \n\nMADRID: Yeah. But I taught courses in Spanish. This will be interesting for you [referring to Abreu-Torres], so they tried to figure out what to do with me in the Spanish section. “What can we do?” And your– our ex-colleague Matt Stroud said “you know, the course on colonial literature hasn’t been taught in years, you can teach it.” Imagine, undergraduates at Trinity University, trying to read 16th and 17th and 18th century Spanish. That’s what they, that’s the bone, they threw me. So I said– and I did it! I had some lovely students that, they went on to do great things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=3600.0,3900.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So after that I just created my own courses so I, one year I taught courses on the novel of the Caribbean. It wasn’t part of central commune, it was, there was a course that you could, name every year. I taught lots of those. \n\nABREU-TORRES: Special Topics. \n\nMADRID: Yeah. Topics courses. I taught lots of those. [laughter] Lots of them. I created the topics. And I had, ten, eight, students and that was fine with me. Nobody ever said “You can’t teach that because you don’t have enough students.” They’re not going to mess with me. So they didn’t. Sometimes, I had four or five students, that was fine. Nobody ever questioned it. \n\nDENNEY: And, were you involved in any organizations outside of Trinity University, at this time?\n\nMADRID: Oh yeah. Any number of them. I served on the board of Texas Public Radio. I served on the board of the San Antonio Museum of Art. I served on the board of Idea Intercultural Development Research Association, those are locally. I served on multiple national boards and organizations over the course of time. Lots and lots. Oh! I served on the board and in fact shared the Guadalupe Cultural Arts Center.\n\nDENNEY: And, can you summarize what it was like to be a Latino faculty member at Trinity in the 1990’s and early 2000’s?\n\nMADRID: It was wonderful. It was a wonderful experience. I said early on that my coming to Trinity, how I got to Trinity. When I was in graduate school, somebody said, “what are your troubles? What would you like to be?” I said, “All I want is tenure at a good liberal arts institution” Guess what? The latter half of my life, that’s what I got. That’s what I had and it was wonderful. Small classes, I remember, thinking, because I had a very dear friend, who was my colleague at Dartmouth College, which was my first job. And he had a hard time completing his dissertation, and didn’t ever got tenure, he married a woman who went off and who got a PhD and she ended up at Cornell as Professor Linguistic, she was denied tenure. So there they were, the two of them, he’s been denied tenure, she’s been denied tenure. They said to themselves: “Where was the last time we were happy?” And I ask myself that question: “When was the last time I was happy as a professor?” When I was teaching at Dartmouth College, that was happy, happy moment, you know. They weren’t going to keep me, because they didn’t keep instructors but, it was wonderful. So I said, “Ah I’d like something like that.” Well guess what? I got it. Wonderful liberal arts institution, there’s very good students. Small classes, lot of things to get involved in. So it was a wonderful experience. I had, I was able to develop some good colleagues in the department, not the easiest thing in the world, as your professor knows, but she won’t talk about it. It was not very easy but I had a lot of stature so they couldn’t, didn’t touch me. But I made a lot of friends outside the department as well. And I had, the President as my backup. He wasn’t going to let anybody mess with me. So, and he didn’t. So, I wanted to do something, I went to him and said, “I’d like to do such and such” Okay. I’ll tell you a story. Just for you. You can turn that off. [recording stops] We were talking about my time at Trinity, right? Did you take good notes? [laughter]\n\nMORA: It’s playing.\n\nDENNEY: Okay. During your time at Trinity, um, what were some of your accomplishments? \n\nMADRID: I think I was, key to– Let’s say central to– I wasn’t the person that did it. But I was, I think I was central to the recruitment of Latinos, to the faculty. I think I was a very important in making Trinity a comfortable and safe space for Latino students and Latino staff and faculty.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=3900.0,4200.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"As I said, the staff got to know who I was, I’ll tell you a little bit about that subsequently. I think I was, along with Professor Gonzalez, instrumental in creating MAS (Mexico, Americas, and Spain program). I think I created the groundwork for the development of programs that have now been established at Trinity. The Leadership Program. I think I helped established the Summer Bridge Program, I was one of the first faculty members on that. Antonia and I created the Madrid Lecture Latino Artists, and that’s a yearly [unclear]. For example, I think those are things. There’re some things that I have not been successful in. We still don’t have a Latino whose a high-level academic administrator or administrative officer. The closest we have is Juan Sepulveda. That’s the closest we have, as administrator. We did manage to get an increasing number of Latino professors. And then, I didn’t have all that much to do with increasing the number of Latino students because that was a natural phenomenon. You don’t go looking for onions in a potato field, you know? The largest number of students are Latinos. Half of, over half of the nation’s student body is minority right now and Latinos make up the largest proportion of it, that’s where the students are so it’s very natural that that’s going to come. But, I did help create a space where they said “Okay, this is not just a college over there, but once I get there, hmmm it's a good place to be.” Because that, that experience that you had, still obtains out there. There’s still, people that say “Hmm, I’m not so sure I wanna go there.” But the moment you get there, they say “Ooh, this is a good place,” So that’s, that comes up off the top of my head. I participated in, what did I do, Trinity University Press, pressed them very hard on publishing Latino authors, I think they’ve done that. And focusing on Latinos in general. I will tell you about, this is a bit before Professor Abreu-Torres arrived and this is an anecdote that I promised I would tell you. We almost managed to get a Latino into the English department. I was instrumental in that. It was rather extraordinary writer, from Brownsville, whose teaching part time at UTSA (University of Texas at San Antonio), ran into him, because somebody said to him: “You got to meet Arturo Madrid.” So, I was at Liberty bar one night, and somebody sent a glass of wine over, waitress sent over. So I went and introduced myself, turned out it’s this writer, so I brought him to campus a couple of times. And then the department decides they’re going to hire a writer. And by gosh if I don’t manage to get him into the final three. And by gosh if I don’t manage to get him into the final one. They didn’t give him the offer and it involved-- this the story. There were four of us in the search committee. I was one, when we interviewed him, in San Diego at the MLA, two of the members didn’t come to the interview. They boycotted. But we finessed, the chair and I finessed and he ended up in the final three. And then the department’s divided. And so, I was the critical vote in that, and I’m a voting member. I was a voting member. When Aaron was appointed I was not allowed to be a voting member. I was a voting member. And so, I was asked to make a case for the writer, and so I did. And we won. Just by one or two votes, but they said, “Okay, going to hire him.” So, after the vote, etcetera, I’m sitting there and I was one of the suits. You know what the suits are? Suits are the administrators. They wore suits.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=4200.0,4500.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Not anymore. [Laughter] I was a suit. A lot of the DP’s– the distinguished professors– not all of them, but most of them wore suits. And, not everybody else did, but the DP’s wore the suits. So, I’m there in my suit, and one of my colleagues, a friend colleague, comes up to me, he says, “That was very good Arturo.” He said, “You turned it around.” He says, “You know, my colleagues were saying, ‘All Arturo wants is Mexicans, all Arturo is interested in is Mexicans.” He says, “Yeah –he says-, I told them, ‘But Arturo wants good Mexicans’.” [Laughter] ‘He’s interested in good Mexicans.’ So that was a very interesting, experience for me, these kinds of things. Some of them are very ephemeral, you just can’t quantify them. So, the little things, people feeling comfortable, I get the testimonies, sometimes directly from them, sometimes indirectly somebody says to somebody else, “Oh, Dr. Madrid made it possible,” “Because Arturo was there and made it possible,” so I’m not patting myself on the back, I’m just saying, there was a– I always talk about the fact that, that I get asked, “So why you?” “Why did you get this position?” “Why did you get this prize?” Why did you get this honor?” “Why did you get this opportunity?” I say, “Well, hard work!” Everybody works hard. “Good [unclear]!” Most people had good folks. And there’s this word that you may or may not have heard: serendipity. Sheer luck. Sometimes its sheer luck. You just happen to be there at the right moment. Now, you can create the conditions for it. I ended up at Trinity University at a good moment, the President supported it, he knew what the demography was, he knew the change, he knew he needed me there, very visible. And he gave me major support. \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. And, what were some of the challenges you faced as a faculty member at Trinity?\n\nMADRID: At Trinity? Well, the first one was, as I said, I would like to teach in the English department and the History department. With the help of the Dean, create some new courses, okay. The second one was trying to encourage the institutions to bring more faculty, Latino faculty, administrators. And, third, to make students feel that this was their space, this could be their institution, okay? It wasn't a challenge for me but it was a goal for me, was to connect as Dr. Calgaard had asked me to do, to make Trinity very visible in the Latino community of San Antonio and to connect with that community. So that was, that was an opportunity, it was a goal. It wasn’t a challenge it wasn’t hard to do, it was fairly easy to, started inviting people to come, make them welcome. And that, they started coming. Whenever there was any event, at least half if not sixty percent of my audiences were people from the community. Because I had a million and a half people to draw from and Trinity only had 4,000 people to draw from. I could draw a much larger crowd from there. \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. Okay, the next couple questions are about the American Intercultural Studies Minor. So, how did you get involved with the minor?\n\nMADRID: It was a very curious entry point. I think he’s retired by now, he was an economics professor and he was in charge of that program. And he asked me if I would serve on it and I lent myself to anything, you know. And besides, my courses fit in it. Unfortunately, that program, at that moment,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=4500.0,4800.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"didn’t go anywhere. I think subsequently there was no leadership. But by that time, I was doing other things, so my work with that program was very marginal at the moment when it was a big thing. But, me convenía, it, it worked on my behalf, because my courses could be used in there. \n\nDENNEY: Do you remember the name of the Econ professor?\n\nMADRID: Billy Brown. And maybe he was in Econ, probably Business. Billy, Billy, Billy. It’s not Brown. Billy, Billy, Billy. African-American professor. In the Business School. Billy, Billy. I think it was B, but I can’t remember. Not Brown. I don’t remember his last name. [Laughter] A estas alturas--\n\nDENNEY: Okay. \n\nMADRID: Ay, estas [inaudible]. Can’t come up with names. For a moment I blanked out on Professor Abreu-Torres’ last name. [laughter] Finally it comes. \n\nABREU-TORRES: It’s okay!\n\nDENNEY: Do you think it inspired you to pursue what would eventually become the MAS [Mexico Americans Spain] program or something else?\n\nMADRID: Let me hear that again.\n\nDENNEY: Do you think the, participating in the American Intercultural Studies Minor would inspire what would eventually become the MAS program, or something else?\n\nMADRID: No, I think, I don’t think the MAS program came out of there. I may be wrong about that. Not from my perspective. Not from my history. I think the MAS program comes from two, three directions. Our friend and colleague, put forth the idea, program, of Hispanic Studies and there would be a chair associated with it. And he would be the member of the chair. So that was– it was going to be general Hispanic studies and he would be the chair. But it was not American Hispanic, it was not Latino Studies, Hispanic Studies, Spain, Latin America. Professor Gonzalez wanted a program that connected Trinity to Mexico. That was his driving force. And he had already been involved in exchange programs, particularly with Monterrey Tech. I was interested in developing a program that would include American Latinos. And so, that was what motivated me. Dr. Gonzalez was able to get the money because of the Mexico connection, but the– Mr. Alvarez was also interested in Spain, but he was also curious about this, the Mexican dimension in the United States, so it lent itself to it. So when we first talked about what to call it, MAS comes up right away. I wanted to call it GMAS because there’s a concept that was developed by a Mexican-American Professor at the University of Texas, very famous professor called ‘Greater Mexico.’ And Greater Mexico includes part of the United States. So I wanted to call it GMAS but, that didn’t go down. So I said, “Then it has to be, the Americas.” And the Americas is all the Americas. Not just Latin America and the Caribbean America and the Central– it has to be North America, it has to be the Americas and thereby we fit in there. So that’s the wedge that I had because the emphasis was very much on Mexico and because Mr. Alvarez was very much interested in Spain, so we were in the between, but I managed to make– take advantage of the in between. Mexico part, drugs did it– that it. To this day it’s a problem. The Spain program on the other hand, took off. So the one has sustained it over the course of time has been the American Latino dimension of it. But we also, to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=4800.0,5102.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"show you about inclusiveness and Professor Abreu-Torres needs to hear this, our internships, they weren’t just for Latino students and they weren’t just for Spanish-speaking students either or Spanish majors or anything. I sent a Vietnamese girl off to Peru one year. To a program, a pre-med program in Peru. \n\nMORA: Oh, that’s pretty fascinating. \n\nMADRID: Yeah, yeah. \n\nDENNEY: So, how did the program change while you were a part of the Executive Committee?\n\nMADRID: Well, we expanded when we realized that Mexico was not an option. That's when we started expanding to send interns to Central America, to the Caribbean. There was one, I remember a group that went to New York City. Very interesting. I think there’s another one that went to California. Dania, you probably have a better sense of this. So we expanded the national component of it more and the Caribbean and Central America component never had a lot of people going to South America. One to Peru is memorable because it’s Vietnamese. Tran Lee. And she goes off to a wonderful experience that she had there. Also we started developing local programming. The internship program, we could place students in various organizations in the community, that made a difference. We also had internships where we were able to go to other places besides San Antonio and to have an internship there. So, it expanded in that way. At that moment, it was a much more inclusive program because we have people from all kinds of departments participating actively in it. I think Professor Abreu-Torres has the initiative there better. For a while it just closed down and had to open up again to incorporate more people into. But of course it’s also been helped by the fact that there’s other programs at the University now that contribute to it. \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. And what do you think is the importance is of the MAS program? \n\nMADRID: Well the MAS program is really, I think an important component of the institution in two ways. Specifically, for Latino students and Latino faculty, it’s a cornerstone for their larger intellectual academic and cultural development. But it also inserts Latinos into the curriculum of the University in a multitude of disciplines. For a moment there, and I think it’s still but not as vital as it was. There was a professor in biology whose name I’m blanking out on right now, who’s actually incorporating MAS students into biology because she was doing fieldwork and she was taking them to– and did in sociology as well, and took them– in anthropology, took them to Central America and that, in economics as well and in history. I think probably other departments as well. So, it infused departments that didn’t necessarily have any Latinos in the faculty or any Latino components– exposure or any part of their curriculum. It exposed them and it incorporated them into that world. So that the MAS world and the MAS program is not foreign to any department anymore. It doesn’t have to be. I can think that, for example, if somebody in astrophysics, or, what do you call it, they don’t call it Geology, what do you call it? Is it Geology?\n\nABREU-TORRES: Geology, yeah. Still. [Laughter] \n\nMADRID: Could take students to do work in in the Andes, for example. Because, that’s part of our world. Easily.  \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. And, so our next couple of questions are just general conclusions about Trinity. So, from research conducted prior to this interview, we took notice of your involvement in several boards and committees during your career,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=5102.0,5400.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"could you please discuss which of these boards/organizations was the most meaningful to you?\n\nMADRID: [Laughter] You have to tell me what the names of the boards are. There are lots. So, let’s say, locally, I would say that two organizations that I was central to, were very important to me. There are two others that made a difference with me in terms of visibility in the city. One was IDRA, which was essentially addressing low income, which is the issue, low-income students in Texas which was Latinos and Whites and Blacks and Asians and that was very important work to me because it became clear to me that unless we turn that around, our numbers would never increase and our education. The other one was the Guadalupe, which I ended up chairing, simply because it was in crisis. And I was pulled in to see if I could turn it around. And, nobody wanted to exercise leadership or take responsibility and when we talk about values -- Here’s an example of values. I was brought up to say if there’s something needs to be done, you do it, even if it’s not pleasant or fun. You take it on. Nobody wanted to take on their responsibility, so I looked around the room, and said, “Is there anybody here that has built a board?” Because we were down to cinco gatos [a few cats]. “Uh, No.” “Okay, I’ll do it then.” “Is there anybody that’s been involved in a campaign to recruit– a national campaign to recruit a leader for this organization?” “Nope.” “Okay.” “Has anybody been a chair of a board?” “Ooh well I was, by default, I didn’t want to do it.” [Laughter] So I volunteer for all three. \n\nDENNEY: Oh wow. \n\nMADRID: So, for five years, I did it and then, five years, I said, “Okay, I’ve done it, got a stable board, have a national leader, find yourself a new chair.” So they did. On the national level, there are two organizations that I was very pleased to have been part of. One was a national commission on higher education. I served on that and was pleased to pushed the issues of making sure that there was funding for low-income students. And that there was a definite focus on making sure that there was an appreciation that these are the students that we are going to help. But perhaps the most important contribution to that, and it was not mine alone, but it was part of an organization I was part of too, it says, “We have to start looking, not what happens between senior year in high school and first-year in college.” Because that’s where the focus is. How many students who get, how high their GPAs are, how good their etcetera, etcetera. We got to start looking at what happens at the end. Because, back then, UTSA was graduating only 10% of the people they admitted in the first-year. For very complex reasons, okay? Trinity was very pleased that they were graduating about 80%, okay? And the measure wasn’t four years. The measure was six years, okay? Six years. We were not doing very well, across the board. So all of the sudden, one of the measures becomes retention and completion. Very, very important. It has had, its ups and downs, its complications, but now it’s a real, real measure. Never had been a real measure in higher education. Completion rates. “Oh we [inaudible]’ “Did you graduate them?” “No, we don’t worry about that.” (laughter)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=5400.0,5700.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the highest, the lowest retention rate was first year students. Could not retain first year students. So, that helped at Trinity because, “Oh we got to do something with first years and make sure the first years are going to be prepared for the next year.” And particularly the Pell grant students, the most vulnerable students, they’re the ones that need it. So that’s why I threw myself into the Summer Bridge Program and stayed five more years on then I should’ve. [Laughter] Or that I planned to. \n\nDENNEY: Yeah. Could you also tell us about the organizations in San Antonio– outside of Trinity that you were involved with?\n\nMADRID: Yeah, outside of Trinity, in San Antonio?\n\nDENNEY: Yes.\n\nMADRID: Okay. I was member of the board and vice chair for the San Antonio Museum of Art, and pushed very hard for them to begin to address Latino artists, and successfully so over the course of time. And I was involved with Texas Public Radio also. And I pushed very hard there. I wasn’t very successful there. Not successful at all. But, guess what? If you listen to Texas Public Radio today, very present. It’s rather extraordinary. I have an anecdote there. One of my friends was a Mexican American, was part of the staff. He said, “The program director says, ‘Ah, Arturo, all he wants us to do, is to play Conjunto music on Texas Public Radio.’” I mean, that’s kind of reductiveness that existed in this, and exists in this community. Fortunately, she’s gone. Miss Mississippi’s gone. Thank God. And the new people know. And there’s programming having to do with us. Big time. But I was foiled at every turn there. \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. Overall, did you enjoy working at Trinity? And if so, what did you like about it?\n\nMADRID: I loved it. Small, small classes that I– I could walk into essentially any space that I wanted to and not feel-- That was mine, this campus was mine. That I knew people and people knew me. That there were things, lectures, and concerts and all kinds of things to go to. Very enjoyable. That it was not very far from here. I never walked to campus, but before I started going to the Y faithfully, every morning I would walk to campus. As part of my exercise. I would walk, because it was uphill. So, and I would run up the stairs. At age sixty-five I was running up those stairs. So it kept me very fit. It was a good place. Lovely, wonderful students, wonderful colleagues. It was a good place for me. \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. Um–\n\nMADRID: That’s why I stayed twenty-two years. \n\nDENNEY: What, if anything, would you change about your time at Trinity?\n\nMADRID: You know, there’s opportunities you miss, but it’s probably because there’s other things that are calling you. I think I could have pushed harder for a major, either in Mexican-American Studies or Latino Studies. I didn’t. There was resistance at the highest level of administration. Dr. Calgaard would have never permitted it. So I couldn’t do it during his time. The President that succeeded him, wasn’t particularly interested. If I had been around during Danny Anderson’s, I could’ve, that would’ve been possible. Back then, for example. That I’m– I would’ve liked to have been able to do that and wasn’t. So, I took advantage of MAS and the MAS possibilities to advance it. I had a very extraordinary advantage that a lot of people don’t have. Surely none of my other DP colleagues had this advantage. I had a very big budget. That I controlled. And I could always go to the President for more.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=5700.0,6000.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I didn’t know that until later. Subsequently I found out, I could’ve gotten far more. But my budget was very heavy. So for years and years and years I would bring people to campus, to lecture. And invite the community to come and other people. And so people wanted to come, wanted to be invited, wanted to be a part of it.  That help create a sense that Trinity was placed– was connected with. And so when my friend Oscar Casares– that’s a guy that almost got hired at Trinity– which at the last moment, he went to University of Texas. At the last moment, lost him. Essentially, people would be told, if you’re in San Antonio, you got to contact Arturo Madrid. Because he’ll tell you what opportunities there are, where to go. I didn’t get involved in the local politics. I didn’t get caught up in part. Or the social clubiness here. We’re fortunate that we’re not from here, that our standing, we could function within the organizations that liked us. We didn’t get caught up in that kind of world. And that was an advantage to us. \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. And, in terms of inclusiveness and belonging, what do you feel Trinity did well and got right?\n\nMADRID: The first one was?\n\nDENNEY: In terms of inclusiveness and belonging. \n\nMADRID: Well, I think ultimately, I think the belonging that it did particularly well. I think, still a longs way to go. Specifically, with respect to Latinos, okay? I think Latinos still do not have the connection with Trinity that they need to have– should have. And by virtue of their experience could have. Because, nobody attended to the– that is nobody officially with the university– alumni office never, never attended to– they could’ve, they should’ve. But they didn’t. There was no other office that did it. I think the inclusivity, they’ve done a good job on inclusivity but not with respect to Latinos. I think all kinds of other groups, exception African Americans, would feel included. More included. Then they would otherwise. But I don’t see that with Latinos. Now, I’ve been gone five years, okay? Five years? Six years! \n\nABREU-TORRES: Six years now. \n\nMADRID: 2016, it’s going to be 7 years soon now. So I don’t know. For all I know, Latinos feel much that they belong more. But certainly, I saw a major turnaround during my time here. \n\nDENNEY: Um, what did Trinity not do well in terms of inclusiveness and belonging?\n\nMADRID: Well we certainly don’t have a lot of Latino professors, do we? \n\nMORA: Nope. \n\nMADRID: We don’t have any Latino officers. We don’t have a major– that would be– that would support and encourage Latino inclusivity. There, so those, those things are missing. \n\nDENNEY: Thank you. And then, what do you feel are some of the challenges that the Latino community members continue to face?\n\nMADRID: Feeling that they’re really connected to the institution. Feeling that there’s a greater opportunity to move up in the institution. A lot of people come and leave for some place else because there’s more opportunity elsewhere. I think Trinity during Dr. Anderson’s tenure connected more with the larger Latino community than previously. I don’t know that that’s going to continue. I hope it will, but I don’t see it happening, there’s nobody that could, at this point, that could take that role clearly, easily.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=6000.0,6300.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DENNEY: Could you talk to me a little more about the origins of the bridge program and how you were involved with like its beginnings?\n\nMADRID: The origins, the person you would wanna talk about the origins is Sheryl Tynes. Sheryl Tynes. She would be able to tell you about it. I got caught up in it, I’ll keep it brief because I know you’re short on time yourselves. I told you that it was a backstory to this affirmative action initiative. When my eldest son goes off to college, there’s a bridge program, they don’t call it a bridge program, but there’s a program for minority students at multiple universities across the country. We’re talking about the eighties. Seventies and eighties. That they bring in minority students early on for two weeks prior to when they would arrive, to socialize them into the place. To familiarize them with the place, to make them have a sense that they can be there alright. So by the time, regular admittees arrive, they’re already, know the place, they’re familiar with the place, they understand the dynamics, they know where to go. They’re not lost like everybody else. Well, in the 1980’s, you can see serious challenges to affirmative action, that were racist and exclusivist, etcetera. And so, institutions dropped them. They ran away from them. And Trinity included it in other ways. So, Sheryl Tynes has a bright idea that most of the issues that were being addressed by affirmative action could be addressed if you looked at income. And if you’re eligible for Pell grants. Kids would benefit from that. And that’s the basis of it. She knew that great many of the young people thought that they were going to go– wanted to go to medicine because they were the bright ones, right? They’re the best ones in their class, etcetera. And their teachers would tell them, “Oh you should go off and be a doctor.” Because that was what– if you were good, bright, etcetera, that’s what you should be, right? So they, a lot of them, came as pre-meds. They were very disappointed when they ended as a professor. But, they stuck it out, and did very well. One of them became an MD. One of them. Wonderful, wonderful, young woman. Working class, her mother didn’t even speak English, rarely so. That, I think was a very, very good initiative and I think its paid off, the statistical data she has, if you talk to her, will say, that they do better than the average first-year student. In terms of retention and their grades. Case and point. [referring to Mora]\n\nMORA: Thank you.\n\nDENNEY: Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about?\n\nMADRID: Oh lots, but for another time. \n\nDENNEY: Okay, Dr. Madrid, thank you so much for your time to do this interview, our recording is stopping here and yeah.\n\nMADRID: Thank you. \n\nDENNEY: Thank you!\n\n[END OF INTERVIEW]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=6300.0,6503.0"},{"id":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885/transcript/72066/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://trinityuniversity.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2313/collection_resources/98837/file/222885#t=6503.0,6503.04533"}]}]}]}